Doing away with character cps in the current form. Something to ponder.

[Torque]

... it reduces how much GreaterMUD feels like MajorMUD. Yes, MajorMUD is flawed, but we as players are here because it is our flawed community. If we lesson the identity of this re-creation of the game...

I'm firmly against this point of view.  This screams "no progress"; if you allow this type of behavior, you will have people crying 'identity' wolf about even minutia. If we explore *better* ways to do something, it's better for a reason.

I still feel like you can have some automated cps mixed in with some control -- enough to have a customized character. This umbrella idea is good, and should be explored actively.

[Apophis2310]

In the short-term this seems underpowered, dont get me wrong this is a good thing for character building, in the long-term this is VERY good for the higher levels as Gardner is saying, with no max stats a level 50 half-ogre warrior per the example could potentially have 200 str & health + base_stat and at lvl 50 would have accumalated ~600 cp points to spend on support stats, this would be seriously better than the current system. I really like this idea, but as another poster pointed out casters would need to be brought up to the same level of scalability. Spell damage based on intellect + items would be a nice addition.

/flame on!

[Gardner Denver]

I was wondering how long it would be, if ever, before someone actually ran the numbers rather than give just a knee jerk reaction because "it's not MajorMUD" or because the numbers seems small.

[Gardner Denver]

Another point that should be brought up as part of any effort to rebalance the game, Duhh mentioned half ogre mystics, ninjas, etc needing specific stats raised faster early on.  It's my opinion that half ogre should suck and anything other than a pure combat class regardless of level.  There is no reason why this one race should dominate the game in almost every class.

The changes I have suggested here would still allow you to play a hog mage, but you do so with the knowledge that he is going to be gimped until the higher levels, which IS how it should be.  Half Ogres are stupid, non agile for a reason.

[addycorp]

Another point that should be brought up as part of any effort to rebalance the game, Duhh mentioned half ogre mystics, ninjas, etc needing specific stats raised faster early on.  It's my opinion that half ogre should suck and anything other than a pure combat class regardless of level.  There is no reason why this one race should dominate the game in almost every class.

The changes I have suggested here would still allow you to play a hog mage, but you do so with the knowledge that he is going to be gimped until the higher levels, which IS how it should be.  Half Ogres are stupid, non agile for a reason.

Half Ogres don't dominate the game.  Half ogre mystic doesn't get forms and can't dodge particularly well due to low agility and charm.  Half ogre ninja (or any other sneaking class)  can't dodge well or backstab other players well at high levels due to low stealth.  Even with the +40 stats it takes a shitload of CPs to get a half ogre with high agility.  Half ogre casters aren't great unless they are high level or have good gear.  Half ogres in parties also seem to be targeted by monsters the most due to your recent changes in that area.

[Torque]

Addy, you're right about Half-Ogres not getting an advantage in combat. That advantage is nothing compared to a hog's survivability. If you wanted to translate hitpoints into armor (dodge or ac), then it would go something like:

Hog mystic - 500 hps
Neko mystic - 350 hps

Now, if you get {insert any combat: bs, magic, regular round} in pvp for 320, the neko is screwed, and can't hang up or he will die. The hog still has this option.
Because agility plateaus for offensiveness for mystic, it wouldn't matter if you had 40 agility or 140 at that point. You might get some more dodge in, but that is a dice roll. What is NOT a dice roll is that the half ogre WILL survive an attack & a hang up pen.
Also, I disagree with not backstabbing well, but I don't know any numbers about it. They are just as much a threat as a Nekojin {class}

[addycorp]

Also, I disagree with not backstabbing well, but I don't know any numbers about it. They are just as much a threat as a Nekojin {class}

What I was referring to here was backstab accuracy in PVP at high levels.  A HOG sneaker typically has the lowest stealth out of all the races, which means they have the lowest BS ACC.  This makes it harder for them to land a backstab, particularly if their opponent has very high perception, AC or dodge.

[Gardner Denver]

What I was referring to here was backstab accuracy in PVP at high levels.  A HOG sneaker typically has the lowest stealth out of all the races, which means they have the lowest BS ACC.  This makes it harder for them to land a backstab, particularly if their opponent has very high perception, AC or dodge.

Outside of a few people who roam in gangs loaded with sneakers, how many people actually use backstabs as a primary first attack in pvp at higher levels?  While it's true that it gives you the initial round initiative, a normal attack from almost any class at high levels will do far more damage.

[mr sinister]

I cannot agree with half-ogres having to be stupid. we are playing heros right? our characters are not based on the monsters in the realm. our characters are supposed to be able to be heavy sided in the beginning. sometimes i go for str, to increase damage and lower enc. sometimes i go for agil because im not carrying any equip and i want speed. what if i am a skinny above average int half-ogre? what if i was an exceptionally fast and maybe even skinny? your telling me there cant be a body building goblin??
there are maybe better combos than other, but actually they all seem to balance out. but to take out the ability to build your character just to cater to whiners is pretty lame imo. mystics are supposed to be kickass. it makes sense that a punching machine might be a half-ogre. same with ninja, have you ever seen an american standing next to a chinese person. are you telling me that because americans are larger on average that thewy would make a horrible ninja? maybe, but there starting stats are lower.
hey i have an idea, why dont we just put foam pads on the ends of all our dirks?

[Stalkerr]

I cannot agree with half-ogres having to be stupid. we are playing heros right? our characters are not based on the monsters in the realm. our characters are supposed to be able to be heavy sided in the beginning. sometimes i go for str, to increase damage and lower enc. sometimes i go for agil because im not carrying any equip and i want speed. what if i am a skinny above average int half-ogre? what if i was an exceptionally fast and maybe even skinny? your telling me there cant be a body building goblin??
there are maybe better combos than other, but actually they all seem to balance out. but to take out the ability to build your character just to cater to whiners is pretty lame imo. mystics are supposed to be kickass. it makes sense that a punching machine might be a half-ogre. same with ninja, have you ever seen an american standing next to a chinese person. are you telling me that because americans are larger on average that thewy would make a horrible ninja? maybe, but there starting stats are lower.
hey i have an idea, why dont we just put foam pads on the ends of all our dirks?

I kind of prefer the way mmud started with all races maxing at 100 in each stat..the only difference being their max stats.  Of course at the time leveling beyond level 12 wasnt possible.

[Gardner Denver]

but to take out the ability to build your character just to cater to whiners is pretty lame imo.

Nobody said do it for whiners.  The goal is to look at methods of rebalancing a game that is currently horribly out of balance, especially at the higher levels.  I would submit that the fact you stated that they do balance out means you probably haven't played a really big character, at least not on GreaterMUD.

[Stalkerr]

Nobody said do it for whiners.  The goal is to look at methods of rebalancing a game that is currently horribly out of balance, especially at the higher levels.  I would submit that the fact you stated that they do balance out means you probably haven't played a really big character, at least not on GreaterMUD.

It would not be possible to simply change the way CPs are added to a character to create 'balance'.  If thats what the point of this idea is, then I have to say your concept is flawed.

CPs merely contribute to and exaggerate balance issues created by formulas that were not designed for the level spread we see in the game.  To further compound the issue so much of the game has been poorly designed, or at least designed without the combat formulas in mind.  The parts of the game that were designed for the combat formulas were not redesigned when the combat formulas changed.  Thus there is no balance at any stage of the game anymore.

Painfully the setup of mmud is not even conducive to the concept of balance.  How do you balance characters?  Should characters be on equal footing based on level?  Total Experience?  Should they be balanced for their pve or pvp abilities or some conglomeration?

In essence creating balance, of any sort, will require a large overhaul of many of the game features. 

To me your idea takes the balance issues out of the player's hands and simply automates the balance issues, maybe with some expanding upon the idea-with its goals clearly stated-this could be worked into something workable.  But without a clearly defined goal, to me at least, this idea falls flat and I cannot envision a way to work with it.

[Torque]

It would not be possible to simply change the way CPs are added to a character to create 'balance'.  If thats what the point of this idea is, then I have to say your concept is flawed.

Flawed more or less than the currently flawed system? If you know perfection, state it.

.. combat formulas were not redesigned when the combat formulas changed.  Thus there is no balance at any stage of the game anymore.

Isn't that (and other things) why we are looking at options for rebalancing?

But without a clearly defined goal, to me at least, this idea falls flat and I cannot envision a way to work with it.

Although particularly wordy, I agree. What's a good clearly defined goal, DC?


I wish I was better at communication so my comments didn't sound abrasive; not my intention. We have a thing in the Army: You don't raise a concern without proposing a solution. Defined goal: NOT overhauling the whole combat system, and still making it work by changing one concept at a time. The first concept? CPS and how Half-Ogre Mystics dominate with half the agility of other races.

In my opinion, if you get the system TOO right, it's gonna be like WOWcraft and no one is gonna have any advantages.

edit: (and everyone will do the same damage, etc.)

[Savik]

Im not particularly a fan of this concept. I feel it will drive the race/class chouces to be very narrow and youll see every ninja/mystic as a dark-elf and every warrior as a hog. There will be very little variety.

I also enjoy the odd build characters and the ability to raise stats as I see fit. If I am trying to script in an area that has particularly hard hitting monsters for the next few levels I might dump more into health, or vice versa.

[Gardner Denver]

This wasn't intended to be an end all and be all fix.  It was intended to be a first step in the process of bringing balance to the game.