Please review our "recommended" changes to DR ratings for chain/scale/plate armours, and provide some constructive criticism before we post the changes to NMR, making them final. This will be a 24-hour post.
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Regards,
Bane
I don't like this at all.
I think you're drastically altering the game dynamics with some of these changes.
If you could explain the purpose maybe it would make more sense?
I didn't get a chance to comment on the last set of changes, but the reason gypsies, missionaries and thieves didn't get proper play time is likely more related to their exp charts than combat rating. Bards have historically been underrepresented as well for the same reason. Before tinkering with the base attack settings of the game (which despite all of majormuds faults was something they spent a lot of time working on) perhaps look to change there exp charts for those classes? I haven't given much thought to the Druid/Mage stacking of rfir/rcol but it reminds me of +prev stacking.
I'm probably just getting to be a crotchety old man here, but I do appreciate you trying to change the game for the best. Thx.
The team of folks we have working on this unanimously decided that DR ratings were far too high and provided tank characters with a massive advantage early on. The reason I posted the info here before making the changes was to allow folks to comment, so I do appreciate you reading and commenting. However, I have a trail of logic from the Reviewing Team that makes the DR reduction sensible. What I need from you, rather than just "I don't like this", is the same thing. Tell me why it doesn't make sense, how it will affect the gameplay, and what your recommendations are.
As for increasing combat on certain classes, lowering their exp charts would help them level faster, sure. But, we're not looking to make a level 50 gypsy comparable to a level 30 paladin. We're looking to make all classes balanced in a toe-to-toe, level for level duel. We want a level 30 gypsy to be comparable to a level 30 paladin. Yet another reason for the DR reductions to metal armors. So again, I would ask for your reasoning and recommendations here.
Lastly, with the RCOL/RFIR stacking, there are no 10-spell limits to GMud, and there is minimal gain from allowing a mage to run both simultaneously. Our reasoning behind this was to make the level 10 crypt quest a bit easier for mages, where they are having to solo both frost and flame elementals. Mages have always had the hardest time completing their level 10 quest. Stand by for some upcoming info on mage nerf's as well though.
We have a long way to go before full balance is achieved, so don't just comment on what I'm posting. I'd like to hear your recommendations for other updates, as well.
Thanks for reading!!
Bane
When you say toe to toe balance, you are referring to pvp?
The dynamic of this game is such that certain characters will provide different advantages. The thief vs warrior matchup shouldn't be an equal footing matchup when they cross paths. The theif is able to run faster than the warrior and should be forced to bs and flee the fight. Give the thief shadowhome (or whatever) and you have another interesting wrinkle where maybe the warrior runs right over the top of him and doesn't see him in the search.
I'll circle back with you on the DR thing but at first glance this seems nothing more than sour grapes from people who want priests to rule the realm.
Priests have already been nerfed per an earlier post. PREV and AURA are no longer stackable, and sacred bastion and hellfire shield have been reduced in AC values. So, it's not just tanks that we're trying to equal out. And, you mentioned shadowhome...we're going to put that ability on thieves, gypsys and missy's.
Also, all of this will be play-tested on a separate realm prior to going live. Are you offering your services as a play-tester? =)
Quote from: Jumpin Jack Flash on Jan 27, 2017, 12:56 PM
Our reasoning behind this was to make the level 10 crypt quest a bit easier for mages, where they are having to solo both frost and flame elementals. Mages have always had the hardest time completing their level 10 quest.
This has to be a joke. It's a joke right???
Quote from: Aragorn on Jan 27, 2017, 06:34 PM
This has to be a joke. It's a joke right???
You have 2 total forum posts....and this was one of them? I appreciate the well-thought out input, we'll take your comments under consideration.
Quote from: Jumpin Jack Flash on Jan 27, 2017, 01:20 PM
Priests have already been nerfed per an earlier post. PREV and AURA are no longer stackable, and sacred bastion and hellfire shield have been reduced in AC values. So, it's not just tanks that we're trying to equal out. And, you mentioned shadowhome...we're going to put that ability on thieves, gypsys and missy's.
Also, all of this will be play-tested on a separate realm prior to going live. Are you offering your services as a play-tester? =)
I'll help play-test.
With that said, the DR - so we're going to do two things to plate right off the bat. We're going to restrict them from being able to wear plate until what lvl? And then we're going to nerf their DR permanently?
You think it's fun being a non-sneaky tank to begin with? Tanks can't kill anyone who doesn't stop to fight them intentionally. Tanks are worthless for killing scripts. Everyone hangs on a tanks attack, and more so when everyone is at keys.
This really seems like a double down to punish anyone who chooses to play a tank. I get that the objective is to slow down the tank development to match others, but this seems a bit overreaching to implement this all at once. And let's also not forget that the endgame becomes dominated by nothing but spell-casters and ninjas...? Tanks are damn near useless other than to
hopefully eat some damage in an endgame boss or pvp battle.
In short, those that choose the boring life of a tank should get some advantage to exping: solo or party scripting over someone who plays a character like a bard, gypsy, thief, ninja, ranger, spellcaster, etc.
The level restriction has been deleted, that's not going to happen. As for the DR nerf, this is only affecting torso armor. No other pieces will be affected. For comparison, a level 40 warrior wearing all non-lim gear could achieve a 99/25 AC under the current system. Under the new system, the same AC would become 99/22. I don't think this is really all that great of an impact upon the later levels. Again, the primary focus here was to slow down the initial push of tanks and give a possibility to leather-wearing sneakers to be the first players to kill thrag/mino bosses.
Yeah - that's fine and makes some sense. Let's give it a shot. I was surprised to see that chainmail is getting a buff at the same time? Didn't see, but does scalemail get a buff too?
Quote from: Blake on Jan 27, 2017, 08:06 PM
I was surprised to see that chainmail is getting a buff at the same time? Didn't see, but does scalemail get a buff too?
Unfortunately, that's just how it works out. We gave chainmail a standard DR of 15% of the AC value, chain got 18% and Plate 20%. Magical armour received a DR rating of up to 30% of the AC value.
Off topic, but have we thought of making the ganghouse shops work? I used to play on a large mmud where I'd stock golden boxes and whatnot and they would sell for enough a day to pay for my overnight tax. I get that you can't put lims in there, but I thought it was a neat feature.
This is a great suggestion, and we'll add it to the list of coding changes for Vitoc. Near the end, we'll post a list of the requested coding changes and let the realm vote on which ones they want, as Vitoc is allowing a Top-5 list, but we may be able to talk him into a couple more.
Im still not following the decision line here... Is this solely for a PVP perspective, or is it meant to assist with the PVE side too. Maybe I'm not following what your idea is for 'toe-to-toe', but talking toe-to-toe equality between classes is ridiculous... a lvl 50 thief 'toe-to-toe' with basically anything shouldn't be equal, whether this is pvp, exp rate, or boss killing. I think alot of that is represented by exp charts. You get what you pay for.
A dwarf paladin with a 250% exp chart should never be equal to a human thief with 80%. It doesn't matter what level they are. If you are paying a higher exp chart, you should be getting more for it. I do see some issues with the high chart leather wearers, such as Rangers, but I don't believe the reduction in DR on plate wearers will help a Ranger survive better solo. They used to be one of the most versatile classes, and now they struggle solo and may very well be a ninja with heal as loading them with pure dodge/silk seems to be the only way to make them survive. Yet again, this has nothing to do with plate wearers DR.
Mages/druids similarly should never match a plate wearer 'toe-to-toe'. At lower levels, mages especially struggle to script solo and make good exp. This all turns around at the higher levels when they actually become more self-sufficient. A low level mage will never keep up exp/level wise with a plate wearer/combat class. But once they get to the level they can room script reliably, they outperform most classes. It's the reward for the struggle at the start.
Using an example of guardian golem/thrag for why you are lowering DR levels is just plain silly. Ultimately it comes down to the most determined people in the realm. Be it a solo warrior or a team of whatever. Whoever is determined enough will get there first.
I haven't seen any of the other changes suggested, and I will look for them after this, but this is my opinions towards the DR reduction.
I stated "level-for-level", but should have said "equal exp levels", so a thief with 10M exp should be capable of going toe-to-toe with a paladin of 10M exp. However, after further review (and much aggression from the pvp side), these changes will be implemented for the PVE realm only!
QuoteAs for increasing combat on certain classes, lowering their exp charts would help them level faster, sure. But, we're not looking to make a level 50 gypsy comparable to a level 30 paladin. We're looking to make all classes balanced in a toe-to-toe, level for level duel. We want a level 30 gypsy to be comparable to a level 30 paladin.
This is exactly what you wrote... Now you're saying it is the complete opposite... you want EXP levels to make them equal?
As for making all classes balanced in a duel, whether it be level for level or exp for exp... some classes just under perform in PVP. Some classes just aren't really designed for it.
QuoteHowever, after further review (and much aggression from the pvp side), these changes will be implemented for the PVE realm only!
And THIS makes no sense whatsoever... You are pushing to equal the classes exp for exp/ level for level/ toe to toe what ever you choose in a duel? but only on the PVE side only? It sounds like the pushes are coming from the PVP side, but not being implemented there?
The classes don't need equalising in a duel, especially on the PVE side of things. The classes need to be equalised for survive-ability.
Each class is going to perform differently in different areas, Plate wearers will excel in heavy melee based areas, mages/druids in multi mob rooms, dodge classes will excel in areas that don't have spells or knockdown spells etc.
You can't balance all the classes to have the same survive-ability in every area. You just need to make them able to survive better in the areas their abilities suit.
Thieves are just never going to be comparable to other classes. With no healing, no buff spells, poor combat, and average armor, they are just doomed.
The leather armor in the current form needs review. As I stated on another post, alot of leather wearers can only survive by switching out for silks and +dodge gear. The leather armour as it is very poor.
Lowering DR on plate wearers will not improve the leather armor. Do what you want with plate, it will not convince me to go back to a full leather wearer.
And if others are of the same opinion, then the who point of these changes have failed.
OK, take a deep breath and calm down. Initially, we were pushing changes to both realms, with one side of the team looking at changes to the PVE realm, and the other side looking at changes for the PVP realm. After much thought, it is impossible to develop a single dat files used by both realms, and keep both sides happy. So, the changes we are making now are for the PVE side ONLY! Because of this, some of the earlier changes have been undone, and we will post those here for discussion when we have them ready.
Nothing that we've done has been finalized, and I encourage you to keep your posts coming about what needs to be fixed. But please, keep the complaining to a minimum, and offer suggestions on how to improve the realm. Any and all ideas will be looked at seriously. We've already agreed to put ShadowHome in the code, and Vitoc has agreed to do this. That was based on another users forum post, so we do read and consider all input!
I'd like for you, Chupon and Blake to be on the play-testing team when we get ready to load up a test realm, since you guys are the only ones with any input. You good with that?
Let me take a crack at some of your questions and concerns.
DR adjustments
As it stands now in the early game a plate class can basically walk thru life with damage bouncing off. The changes will limit that some in the early game and make a more balanced early-mid game. Leather will never be like plate but some adjustments may yet be made there. Play testing will look at it.
Thieves
The goal is to make all classes playable if not enjoyable when played alone as well as in a party. Ninja gets enhanced dodge and crits and all weapons. They are still very distinct classes. The shadowhome skill by design will let them rest while hidden. The low exp chart makes them cheap but with these changes our hope is they are more playable as a distinct class
Rangers
Rangers will get the added spells of regeration and stoneskin to offset the high chart. This puts them more in line with priestly and mage classes armour spells and helps offset some of the exp chart.
rcol/rfir
rfir and rcol are not opposites, merely resistances. Druid globe of the elements and bard song of the elements include both at once as well. This was a pretty recent change by metro
which may have been done to combat 10 spelling which is not an issue in gmud. We can think of no instance where this hurts anyone.
Quests
The quests that were reduced were the level 15 quests that already gave an additional stat bonus and the big experience was just a way to blast past several levels. With an eye towards slowing down the early portion of the game these have been spread out and reduced in experience. The phoenix feather and the alignment quests have been left alone and in the case of the 4th (dark phoenix) actually been increased to reflect the amount of work that goes into them.
Neutral
This has been discussed with the expectation of either allowing neutral priests to use the good spells or possibly either good or evil options. At this point spellmod does allow them to use protection from evil as well as protection from good.
Blackwood staff
The blackwood staff is not a terribly powerful weapon alone at 1300 speed and 4-10 damage but add the 99% cast extra drain spell and it becomes 8-30 at 1300 speed with the added benefit of refilling your health by an average of 72 hitpoints per round. REducing the drain makes it an effective 6-20 which still tops any other staff I see and many bladed weapons as well.
Stun/fear/sleep
This is high on the list of coding changes. In majormud once a spell is cast on you by a monster all other attempts to cast that spell on you are resisted which gives you a chance to break free. In gmud the monster can cast the same spell and it resets the timer effectively creating a continuous effect..permastun. This may require a change in how users cast spells on themselves as well, that is still under discussion.
Chart changes
The goal is to create as balanced a game as we can within the limits of the engine. our aim is to make all classes equally playable and enjoyable. This has never been successfully done before but we are giving it a try anyway. ;D
Lairs
We are adding lairs all over the realm. So far we have added in sewers..slimy sewers..slum sewers...smugglers..crumbling tunnels..slums...sandstone mines with jungle on the list already as well as others you mentioned..gnaj areas.....diamond mines...and exp adjustments are also in the plan.
Rod of might
The ideal play might be to increase neutral gear to make people want to play it but at this point this weapon sits on the floor and is never used..its too good an item to waste away like that. In the realm now I would be surprised if there is one actually in use in the huge list of players. Our first goal is to renew use and circulation of items that don't get anough use and allow more ways to build a character. As we move forward into adding new areas/items this track may be given more weight.
I appologise if I've come off as aggressive... I wasn't intending to. It's just I seem to have come late to all the forum posts, as I only saw someone post the link in the 'gossip' about 2 days ago, and by that time some of the posts said they were closed as noone seemed to have any issues with them.
I'm all for trying to make the game balanced and fun for all classes. There is alot of fixing/changes that need to be made across alot of classes to do this.
Just by reading the last few forum posts, it appeared it was just a move to nerf some of the only classes that survive well solo.
I have no problems trying to reduce the DR on some of the lower end gear to attempt to slow down the ability to walk straight through monsters, but the high end gear tops out at level 50, so from then on you are relying soley on extra HPs to keep you alive as you progress on your leveling.
With many of the guys hitting level 100+ (one of my own last night.) it seems poor form to reduce the already limited 50+ gear.
Has there been discussions on adding in 60+, 70+ etc gear?
I have to head off to work, but I'll think of any other ideas that I can and post later.
I'm happy to be a tester in the new realm.
It's my intention to add additional armor's for all classes, especially leather folks.
Do you intend to release a MME export for the realm after all the changes are made?
Yes :)
Can PvP get the lair changes at least?
Quote from: Coarse Horse on Jan 30, 2017, 03:51 PM
Do you intend to release a MME export for the realm after all the changes are made?
No, that would reveal all of our easter eggs.
Quote from: xian on Jan 30, 2017, 05:03 PM
Can PvP get the lair changes at least?
Not at this time, because I have to edit a separate dat file for the PVP realm, so PVE will be first, then tested. Once all the bugs are worked out of that one, then we'll put some time into the other realm.
Quote from: Winterhawk on Jan 30, 2017, 09:48 AM
Chart changes
The goal is to create as balanced a game as we can within the limits of the engine. our aim is to make all classes equally playable and enjoyable. This has never been successfully done before but we are giving it a try anyway. ;D
I get what you're going for here but you're taking something objective and subjective and trying to combine the two. You can make all classes balanced... but the idea that you can grade someone's utility for a certain class vs. another while balancing all classes doesn't work.
Please make the changes slowly. I'd hate to have a realm full of gypsies running around next push.
QuotePlease make the changes slowly. I'd hate to have a realm full of gypsies running around next push.
Gypsy's and Missy's are gonna be the gotto classes...
Has there been any suggestion to change the Warlock into a 2h weapon class?
I think that would make a very nice alternative to the normal Paly class.
Either that or maintain the exp % for gypsy and make them 2h. That would give an alternative to the ranger.
Just some suggestions.
Can we change 'red enameled scalemail' to chainmail instead? The AC could be changed to reflect this. That way it would be usable by warlocks, as it currently stands WH's can't use it because it's magical and no plate wearer would opt for it over a plate option.
It's another item that sits around gathering dust.
Quote from: cytrik on Feb 02, 2017, 03:39 AM
Can we change 'red enameled scalemail' to chainmail instead? The AC could be changed to reflect this. That way it would be usable by warlocks, as it currently stands WH's can't use it because it's magical and no plate wearer would opt for it over a plate option.
It's another item that sits around gathering dust.
Done. Weight/Dodge altered to reflect chain instead of scale. Item now called Red Enameled Chainmail
QuoteDone. Weight/Dodge altered to reflect chain instead of scale. Item now called Red Enameled Chainmail
That was quick and easy...
Just reading back through the changes... is there a reason ninjas don't get shadowhome? Realistically if any class was to be able to hide while resting it would be a ninja.
A few more ideas, just for the hell of it...
Is it possible to make the thief's kit off-hand? with an AC of maybe 1? Not sure if anyone actually uses these, but having a constant boost to picklocks and traps instead of having to switch out a weapon might make it enticing.
Can we have a look at some of the low level ninja only weapons? I'm just browsing through and noticed that 'kusari gama' while it does not have a level requirement it does have a lower speed/damage ratio than a severed leg and a lower minimum damage... And being that it's 2h and a severed leg is 1h, you can still run an offhand with the leg.
Come to think of it, there's alot that's got a lower speed/dmg ratio than a severed leg... I'm starting to think the severed leg is overpowered.
Is there anything that can be done about the withered walking stick? Maybe add some mana regen onto it, nothing too high as it's not a limited item, but it is level 40+ and that might entice some neutral mage/priests or even druids to look at it.
Just another idea, which I think is possible in the game already, but not 100% sure, but is it possible to change some of the limited staff's/wands that cast spells per day to be unlimited like the nexus spear. But add in a mana requirement to them. So that you can be one of a limited number that can cast some cool spells but it's mana dependent, so you can't just cast it every single round without penalty. Would make some of the lesser used staves more in demand.
You can tell me to stop at any time...
Quote from: cytrik on Feb 03, 2017, 02:54 AM
That was quick and easy...
Just reading back through the changes... is there a reason ninjas don't get shadowhome? Realistically if any class was to be able to hide while resting it would be a ninja.
Pretty sure Ninja's are slated to receive, if not, they will.
Quote from: cytrik on Feb 03, 2017, 03:55 AM
A few more ideas, just for the hell of it...
Is it possible to make the thief's kit off-hand? with an AC of maybe 1? Not sure if anyone actually uses these, but having a constant boost to picklocks and traps instead of having to switch out a weapon might make it enticing.
We can maybe look at making it a "non-worn" item, just in the inventory and gain the benefits without equipping.
Quote
Can we have a look at some of the low level ninja only weapons? I'm just browsing through and noticed that 'kusari gama' while it does not have a level requirement it does have a lower speed/damage ratio than a severed leg and a lower minimum damage... And being that it's 2h and a severed leg is 1h, you can still run an offhand with the leg.
We will be looking at weapons and items once we get finished with updating lairs.
Quote
Is there anything that can be done about the withered walking stick? Maybe add some mana regen onto it, nothing too high as it's not a limited item, but it is level 40+ and that might entice some neutral mage/priests or even druids to look at it.
We're putting special emphasis on little-used items, trying to bring more life to them (serpent scourge/rod of power). We'll take a look at the WWS and see if there are any warranted changes to be made.
Quote
Just another idea, which I think is possible in the game already, but not 100% sure, but is it possible to change some of the limited staff's/wands that cast spells per day to be unlimited like the nexus spear. But add in a mana requirement to them. So that you can be one of a limited number that can cast some cool spells but it's mana dependent, so you can't just cast it every single round without penalty. Would make some of the lesser used staves more in demand.
This is an interesting concept, but we would have to be cognizant of the fact that this would prevent non-mana characters from being able to use them. For example, anyone can use the crescent moon staff currently to heal 3x per day. If we put a mana requirement on this and make it unlimited uses, then some character classes would be written out of being able to use it. But, we can look at potential ways of making something like this.
QuoteThis is an interesting concept, but we would have to be cognizant of the fact that this would prevent non-mana characters from being able to use them. For example, anyone can use the crescent moon staff currently to heal 3x per day. If we put a mana requirement on this and make it unlimited uses, then some character classes would be written out of being able to use it. But, we can look at potential ways of making something like this.
The idea I had wasn't for all of the usable staffs to have this. Maybe this is more of an idea/concept once new content gets looked at... Something for high end mages/priest/druids... or mystics with the use of kai...
I just think this type of thing would add to the appeal of some limited items... such like the emerald-tipped crozier, and shimmering greatsword.
Shimmering greatsword already has this whole concept going... unlimited uses but costs 8 mana to use. It's a great little spell, but it's from a lvl 10 weapon.
The large silvery cross has the same thing, costing 15 mana each use for cross of vengeance.
If this could be added to more/new items it would make them very enticing and possibly fought over (good for increased pvp).
Being the only character in the realm with a special spell whether it is an attack, a defensive or an added resistance spell, it might add something to the game. Obviously they would have to be enticing without being overpowered. Therefore attack spells might have to cost very large amounts of mana, so as not to be able to cast them every round.
As for non-mana classes, they're just going to have to miss out. Obviously this concept would be focused around mana classes, so other items can be added for non-mana classes with different ideas behind them if someone can think of something.
Just some thoughts.