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GreaterMUD Discussion => GreaterMUD Ideas => Topic started by: The Crazy Animal on August 31, 2007, 02:54:04 pm

Title: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: The Crazy Animal on August 31, 2007, 02:54:04 pm
Bank Tax ? A good way to encourage players not to hoard their wealth is to set up methods of automatically deducting from it. This enforces a use it or loose it mentality.  Since most players enjoy the relative safety of banks, most players keep at least a fair portion of their money in them. So it would be wrong to not suggest that we set up a method of taxing cash in the bank. This could be done a few ways but I would suggest that it is done proportionally to the amount in the bank. I.E players with below a certain amount in a bank aren?t taxed. This method would allow new players and hard luck players to become more established while controlling overly established wealth hoarders.

The Taxes removed from players in this way could then be tracked and used for things like varying the armaments of guards, varying the types of NPCs that spawn in the town.

Bank Fees ? I?d really like banks to be rob able however there needs to be two things that go with this that would generate both the difficulty of the target bank and the security of the money in it. When a bank is successfully robbed it would deduct the amount from all accounts in the bank. However I?d like to give the account holders the ability to protect their account by paying a variable security fee. The more you are willing to pay in to this fee the more the bank is willing to cover your losses and the more difficult it is to rob the bank. The variability of bank security would be based on the total cash collected from all the players with accounts paying this fee and the number of accounts in the bank.

The other bank fee that I see feasible is transfer fees; this would be a bank to bank transfer from a players account at one bank to their own account at another. I spoke about this before so I?m not going to go into much more detail about it.

Tolls ? In MMUD there were a few toll roads that you had to pass by but I think we should expand on this idea and set up District tolls that tax players based on the amount of cash they are carrying. The reason for using this method is that it creates a varying charge which would respond to monetary inflation unlike that of static tolls. Each of these district tolls would have varying rates that they charge. This method then could also benefit us by adding a new strategy into player travel where players would be encouraged to look for the cheapest travel routes around the realm. The other thing we can do with this is potentially create a rob-able toll garrison that?s treasure value is variable and based on player travel habits.

Sales tax ? This would be localized shop tax that accounts for the amount of money in a particular area. For example in mmud silvermere?s surrounding areas included: darkwood forest, elder grove, the slums, the black house, the island.  The tax would more specifically be based on the amount of loose cash and item value in those areas as well as a few other player factors. We would then use this sales tax to artificially increase the price of goods in that area to keep it on par with the wealth of the area. As the wealth of the area is reduced via area usage the tax rate would then be reduced accordingly. This system would provide the game engine the ability to micro balance inflation from a localized point of view. While other engine specific functions move to correct and stabilize the imbalance of wealth at the source of the problem. Note ? It shouldn?t be as severe as: ?Could someone go pick up all the copper please in X local I can?t afford a lantern.?

Similarly to the bank tax this money could be tracked and used to generate and alter game dynamics.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Secret on September 21, 2007, 10:18:56 pm
Bank Tax - I like the idea of using money in the bank to furnish the bank area. I just can't imagine there being a good way to implement this. My issue would be why put money in the bank? The only time money really matters is when you really need it to pay tolls / travel items or buy an item / level. In case of tolls / travel items, they are generally so small that your min tax limit wouldn't impact the cost of those items. If this weren't the case , dying, wandering, getting to your script spot would be very annoying.

If you really need to buy an item / spell / level then you would goto the cash areas and just grab it off the ground or script the area. In order to minimize abuse of cash areas, they are usually kept pretty far from the bank. If there is a tax, what would be the point of putting the money in the bank? You would put it in just to have it disappear again. I would only keep a small reserve in the bank and leave the rest on the floor till I needed it for something important.

I guess I just see the tax as either being trivial or a major annoyance. Not much in between. However, a trivial amount for a user could still be alot of money collectively for social use. For example, see the movie "Office Space"

Bank Fees - I really like this idea. I would like to see banks robable. Bank customers should have their money insured up to some configurable percentage (e.g., 90%). If a bank is succesfully robbed, then a robber can get upto XX (e.g.,  10%) of the banks total assets (i.e., player money). The amount the robber would get should be variable. Bank robbers never get all the money in the bank. It would be dependant on whether you rob the safe, a teller, or an ATM? Meaning the more money you wanted, the more risk (guards, ep, etc.) you would have to be willing to take.

Tolls - They pretty much always suck. But what would be cool is if you implemented it the way highways are done. You pay the toll and you fight less monsters or you walk fewer rooms to get to the same spot. Better yet, Teleport. Although teleport is easily abused but neat nonetheless.

Sales Tax - This could be okay if implemented correctly. Native items to an area should not be worth as much in that area. However, the potential for abuse is great unless perfectly architected. It seems like it would be a bigger headache for game designers than its usefulness to players. I know this is slightly different from your main point but your main point seems pretty processing intensive for the value.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: The Crazy Animal on September 22, 2007, 12:18:19 am
Bank tax:
Picking money off of ground in cash heavy areas ? One of the ideas we?ve been toying for a good long while involves monsters picking up any left over coins that are on the ground as they regen and move around. Its just one of those things that makes sense if you?re a orc hoard running around pillaging villages for food and money your going to pick up the easy to get cash too. So for players leaving money around on the ground will be come a little less stable resource. This is probably one of the biggest things that will have a positive effect on the economics of the realm.

You?re right there; small taxes like this are not really effectively looked at from the single perspective but across the long term and lots of players they can remove a fair amount of money. And that?s really at the heart of this while trying not to irritate the players by diminishing their individual incomes too much but remove a fair enough portion from all of them that it can make a small difference in the long run.

Bank fees:
Varying the take ? Right; with risk comes potential reward. I was thinking of having it be based on how long you stay in the room. Similar to how GTA vice city worked with robbing stores. The longer you stick around and deal with the regening guards the more money you can collect however at the same time the harder and or more numerous the guards would get as they regen.

Tolls ? tolls are annoying when you don?t carry money around but generally represent the major travel corridors from one area to another. Generally toll roads should be safer then walking the back roads but that?s what you would be paying for. On another note we already are planning alternative faster transportation systems but these will be pay to travel. The griffons are just a small part of it.

Sales tax:
Sales tax would only be on the shop selling end just to clarify that because of that the potential for abuse is minimized. Actually it?s potential for abuse is almost nothing since we only have to deal with the ability for players to fill rooms full of things of value and at which point it would raise the cost of items in that single area. Even though players are able to do this it?s not going to net those doing it positive gains rather it will reduce the surplus of money quicker from that area and possibly others. This will also add a new strategy in the game if you want to hunt for stashes and put hoarded items back into the game look for variations in shop prices. Secondly since monsters will; at some point be able to pick up cash and then later items this will become some what self balancing if left alone long enough.

The value of the idea is to take one more step towards a self balancing economic framework with in the game where things like monetary inflation can be micromanaged by a number of small independent but interconnected goal oriented systems. These types of things are kind of integral to maintaining the value of money in a system that has very little management of liquid assets via the limited availability of resources. I.e. currently an order for 1000 iron suits of amour doesn?t increase the price of iron which in a sound economic model it would.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Jigga on April 08, 2009, 01:38:03 am
I like some of this... Here are a few of my ideas:

For one thing, on my current MMUD board, I just limit the max balance you can have in each bank to say, 90 runic so people can't hoard (sp?) too much cash.

Now maybe don't have the banks be linked like Khaz and Silvermere are now. And have each bank have different 'taxes' or things that they are used for, and the game know how much you paid, and have a benefit.

For example: Say you keep all your money in the Silvermere bank, and it takes out taxes over time to pay for guards and city upkeep. Have the game keep count of how much you've paid over time and every so often, for contributing the to good of the city, you will receive a rare item from the Mayor as a result of gratitude. Have this basically be on a scale... X amount of taxes paid over time earns you X item.

As for the Bank of Rhudaur, the concept would be similar but you'd get an evil item. Also since it is a crooked town, you run the risk of NOT getting an item when you've paid taxes, but if you do... it might be better than the ones you would get in Silvermere.

Another idea... the better the bank (i.e. the harder to get to like Lost City), the higher the taxes.

In order to earn a reward you should have to maintain a balance above a certain amount of money for a certain amount of time.

Like if you keep over 1 runic in the bank (and keep depositing before cleanup because taxes will lower that!) you get a certain item.

Keep a balance over 10 runic... get a better item.

Farther bank = better item, higher taxes.





Also, maybe have donations... like you could donate money to temple in exchange for a bless spell that will last all day.

And maybe have donations give you items, and work like chests. Have a bunch of shitty items as rewards and a 1% or 5% chance at a good item (of course also depending on how much you donate).




Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: The Crazy Animal on April 11, 2009, 10:07:52 am
I like some of this... Here are a few of my ideas:
For one thing, on my current MMUD board, I just limit the max balance you can have in each bank to say, 90 runic so people can't hoard (sp?) too much cash.

The problem with that is the cash just ends up on the ground then if you can?t spend it or bank it. So unless you continually do coin sweeps the issue of too much cash in the game continues. I don?t really like coin sweeps though because it degrades the fun of actually finding a trove of cash. If there were more banks in the game though account limits wouldn?t be a bad thing.

Now maybe don't have the banks be linked like Khaz and Silvermere are now. And have each bank have different 'taxes' or things that they are used for, and the game know how much you paid, and have a benefit.

I?d agree the banks shouldn?t be linked together as they are now. I would go as far as saying there should be a banking system in place though that allows you to move money around though. Lets say there could be multiple types of banks and each type of bank has its own set of banking fees or and game rules attributed to them. As a standard for all of them though when a bank is robbed it temporary shuts down for say 30 minutes this keeps players from being able to run rob deposit scripts while sitting in anyone bank. It also forces players to use multiple banks and spread their cash around or risk having to wait for it.

Family banks:
These banks are owned by rich influential families they are cheap to use but have higher risks involved. They are limited in account size, have small accounting fees, money is not transferable to other banks, optional account insurance (0% to 100%) at an additional fee. They are easiest of the banks to rob as well. When robbed all accounts at the bank are hit for a random percentage amount (actual method could be worked out later.) You might find a few of these types of banks in any one area all with variable fees and account limits.

(On a side note there could be premise here for thievery quests based on family back rivalries.)

Municipal bank:
This would be kind of like the bank of Silvermere. It?s owned and maintained by the town or city that it exists in. Banking fees are slightly higher but it is better secured as well as having additional services and higher account limits. Cash in accounts is transferable to other banks at a fee and has a wait period attached to it. You may also deposit items if you rent a safety deposit box.  Items in a safety deposit box may be insured for an additional fee, if stolen you get the insured value back not the actual item though. The rent on a safety deposit box is pulled directly from your account, if your account does not have the cash need to pay for the box the items are seized and put into an auction system (kind of like a sheriffs sale).  The amount cash fees these banks take in directly affect how secure they are. And to an extent also could affect the types of guards in a town in general. An account insurance of 10% to 25% is included in the basic fee and extra additional account insurance may be worked out at an additional fee. When robbed for cash all accounts at the bank are hit for a random percentage amount (actual method could be worked out later.). When safety deposit boxes are robbed it works a little more like a chest as to which ones are opened from the available boxes in the bank some would be from players and others would be generated with the items values based off of the tracked value of fees taken in. These banks start out at a medium difficulty to rob.

Royal bank:
This type of bank would be similar to the one in Khaz it?s backed and owned by a royal family.  Here you find the best security for your money and possessions but at an equally high cost. Starting account insurance is 25% to 50% with more available at a cost. Accounts do not have limits on them. Cash transfers are faster? Your account includes a safety deposit box insurance for that is extra though.

Gang bank:
We have gang houses and shops so why not gang banks you decide the fees and supply the protection by purchasing upgrades. Gang members can bank for free. Fees would be kept in a house account and could help pay for the actual gang house and would be accessible to the gang leader. When this type of bank is robbed the name of the person who robbed it is recorded on a bulletin inside the gang house.

This would give you some variance in the banking system.

One thing I?d love to have NPCs that rob the banks too and end up with special drop lists based on the contents they get from safety deposit boxes. You?d basically see a bulletin with the NPCs name and area of the bank and a basic direct they went in and you can go track them down. Items dropped from the NPC could be turned in for a reward or kept. If the items are turned in for a reward they go back into the boxes they were taken from or poofed depending if they belonged to a player or not.
I?m not sure what to think about just giving rewards out for using the bank though I do see what you?re getting at. I could see maybe things like transfer fees could be discounted if you keep a minimum balance. Really though the fees are there as a logical means of cost for a service.

Also, maybe have donations... like you could donate money to temple in exchange for a bless spell that will last all day. And maybe have donations give you items, and work like chests. Have a bunch of shitty items as rewards and a 1% or 5% chance at a good item (of course also depending on how much you donate).

I kind of like the donation idea. I could see it working out where there could be some donation system in place within the banks that could give out rewards. These could be events like the eastern garrison is in desperate need of supplies. Donate some cash to help out. Then perhaps the player that gives the most cash gets a special reward and everyone else gets some other default reward. The events could even be locality based too so it?s always things near the bank.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Jigga on April 12, 2009, 01:35:32 am
About the donations... you could even have NPC's in random places in the realm just wandering, sort of like the nomads in the deset, and have them ask for money, and there always be the chance that if you give them something, they might randomly give you an awesome reward...

like a 'weary traveller' in the lagoon somewhere... or even a wounded or dying somebody... and they would ask if you could help them, and then end up giving you some item they had that they will 'no longer be needing' for your generosity.



On another note, with the bank taxes and stuff, one thing would be, once players get big enough they'll just carry all thier money on them.

Think, a level 50+ tank scripting the white forest would just script with 500 runic on him because there's no way he's going to lose it.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: manihooni on April 20, 2009, 03:10:57 am
just a note on the donation idea
brings me to mind of D&D
where like paladins couldn't keep all the booty because they are "poor" knights  (if lawfully aligned that is)
Sooo, they gave most of what they received to their temple / God and only got to keep enuff for their immediate expenses. horse /food/lodging etc.

 I also like the bank robbing idea.. i would assume that rhudar would have easiest robbing factor  after all it is an evil town with unsavory characters  like an old west frontier town w/o a sheriff or his posse. and since them mystics  are well mystics, (albeit evil ) the temple would be ummm religious by nature and rely on umm donations - yeah donations (probably at sword/ fist point?)- egrin
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Darmius on April 21, 2009, 08:49:16 am
We just need more money sinks.  Most MMOs have many in place.

Common money sinks, you've seen them in many other games

Okay i'm running out of ideas.  But Food and Potions would be easy to implement, the rest would require some work.



Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: geeogree on April 21, 2009, 10:38:14 am
I like a lot of the ideas here but I think I know what part of the problem with how much money people have is - items sell for too much money. I can make several runic selling items from chests that aren't even limited. Now items should be worth a fair bit but I don't think it should sell for too much if you can buy it in a shop. Yeah, limited items should sell for a lot because getting another one is usually a difficult task and limited items are generally pretty good. I just think cutting back on how much items sell for would reduce the amount of money in the realm at any time. That and some of the other ideas here like the ones listed would make it a lot harder to accumulate lots of money.


Oh, I had another thought, if you are in an area where you are "evil" (because the good/evil system is not quite as simple as it is right now) you should be able to bribe guards not to kill/attack you maybe (unless you are fiend).... just another way to have to blow some money in order to save time not going to jail or dying and finding your deathpile.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: manihooni on April 22, 2009, 01:53:44 pm
hrrmm i sure like the bribe idea 
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: kalus on April 23, 2009, 02:06:17 pm
Portals, Teleporters, Wagons, Flying Griffons to other towns... or any location. For a price.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: DeathCow on April 23, 2009, 04:54:39 pm
Flying Griffons to other towns... or any location. For a price.

Spooky man...spooky.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Gardner Denver on April 24, 2009, 04:04:13 am
Spooky man...spooky.

Flying Griffons, where have we seen that before...
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: The Crazy Animal on April 25, 2009, 05:41:08 pm
Flying Griffons, where have we seen that before...

hehe
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Torque on October 27, 2013, 06:28:00 am
I had bank tax as an idea and searched that to find this thread. What about a 2% tax rate on bank balance every day? Quick mental math tells me 1,000,000 copper in the bank, you'd be paying like 30 gold a day, with diminishing costs (if you add nothing to it)
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Hurricane Omega on November 03, 2013, 09:56:14 pm
First off, way to necro a bunch of really dead stuff.  A small tax on the bank balances doesn't change the fact that by level 50 the only cash you really need is up to 600 runic for the easy trainer.  I train every 2 levels and reduce that to 300 runic.  I can pull that out of the dying fields in 4 trips with my two characters and if you collect plat at the storm fortress, one trip should be enough.  To keep the cash under control, you need something to spend it on at high levels, not an arbitrary tax on bank accounts.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Torque on November 06, 2013, 12:03:16 pm
First off, way to necro a bunch of really dead stuff.

And?

not an arbitrary tax on bank accounts.
Abitrary-
1. based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. "his mealtimes were entirely arbitrary"
 
 You're using the straw man argument to pretend like your point is better than mine. There is no comparison; your idea is completely different than mine, especially when you can engage both of them concurrently and independently. So.... I guess your comparison is arbitrary!
 
the only cash you really need is up to 600 runic for the easy trainer.

Are we talking about GreaterMUD? I thought GreaterMUD didn't have any costs to train. Hurri I appreciate your reply, but you've succombed to word bashing (by the way, you automatically win at internet hating, I give up). Because of this, I don't really see any point to anything you've said other than "Hurrilollicane must not like me and will do everything he can to prove me or my points obsolete, regardless of reality".  How about seperating your boring ego and idea from my idea, then talking to me about why my idea wouldn't work. Why wouldn't it work?

Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Hurricane Omega on November 06, 2013, 12:23:39 pm
The training itself does not cost anything.  You do still have to pay the 36 tolls and buy the 20 runic key to get to the trainer.  If you train every level, that costs around 56 to 58 runic per trip.  I just don't think that taxing bank accounts will help with the economy at all.  Once I get past level 75, I don't need gold for anything other than the 5 gold toll to get out of Silvermere through the main gate.  If you want to clean up the cash that is littering the ground everywhere, you will need something to spend it on, not just tax it out of the game and hurt players at low levels.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Torque on November 06, 2013, 01:33:48 pm
Awesome! Thanks for actually debating and bringing up good points. I don't think the trainer and its tolls has anything to do with this proposed bank tax, but it does have more to do with your suggestion of creating a higher end market [which to spend money on]. I like your suggestion as well, have more things on the higher end to spend on, it's great, and definitely better than what I'm talking about.
 This bank tax is a way to eliminate money from the market, which is a known way to handle affluency. Affluency is bad for the same reason that the economy "needs to be fixed". It shouldn't be the only way, but it will at least help in the battle. If someone has a white house, they can stock gold for a year, leave, and still have the white house after a year. This is a pretty crappy system, and I think a bank tax will help expedite a solution, while adding to the reduction of in-game currency. Because it will be a small percentage, the daily user won't really feel it: If you have 100 runic, 1 runic for the first day isn't going to hurt you. If you didn't put any money in the bank, you'd have 99 runic - 99 plat for the next day, and so on. I don't feel like doing the math, but it would take a month before you were needing more money (since you weren't creating and putting money into the bank in the first place after that intial deposit).
 If your ultimate reason for not wanting a bank tax is simply that you would hate it while you were playing, I don't think that is enough reason to put it aside. Money shouldn't be easy, and a bank tax is a way to make it harder. Also, you don't have to use the bank
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: mad on February 17, 2014, 11:42:35 pm
I think there should be fees AND interest, like a normal bank.

A daily fee, and monthly interest, balance it out so you must keep depositing or eventually, it dwindles to nothing. Solves the economy issue. Not much you can do once people begin hauling 80 runics down the mountain.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Thanos82 on March 04, 2014, 06:24:48 am
Personally I think the idea of cash deleting at cleanup has some merit. But no single solution is going to fix everything.
I understand delete at cleanup wipes out the possibility of just wandering into a huge treasure trove, so add safe rooms to the map where items are protected.

Later maybe code in monsters pickup cash or hide it. No reason a secret room/lair can't be added to some of the more intelligent monster areas where would have a vault . After all, if the gnolls (my perennial favorite to pick on for obscene cash) have so much gold why don't they have a vault? Why wouldn't they build a vault which is guarded by some of the toughest gnolls they can find. Make them three times as tough as existing gnolls, non-chase, instant HP regen if the room is empty minus the gnolls (no sneak in BS then run out since they won't chase), and almost no xp, and a 3 minute regen and you've got something not worth scripting, but which. Once they are dead a locked door behind them becomes pickable/bashable, and behind it is the treasure.

Same concept for other locations. Or in even simply monsters pick up money. It never did make sense why they would all be fighting in rooms simply filled with cash (Dark-elf castle). Scripters could still stash cash, they just can't leave it where it lay and otherwise intelligent monsters are leaving it alone.

How hard would it be to code in a limit to amount of coins that can be hidden in a room? Does it make sense that 300,000 coins could be hidden in a room? Because of game mechanics and such could it be set to a 50K limit, and the rest is visible?

Forgot to mention. A delete at cleanup option though is a huge change to the baseline economy and expectations of how much money a person could have. It would actually mean many prices should be lowered if the objects are going to even be obtainable.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: The Crazy Animal on April 08, 2014, 10:25:06 pm
I've been toying with the idea of having areas that have reward drop limits when they hit zero they would stop dropping things. These areas however would pick up extra cash and recycle them into their drops and have a set a cash regen limit that slowly maxes out. The cash regen rate could be set via other game figures. Something very similar to what you see in automatic city generator programs for DND. However without methods of cash redistribution (gasp socialism via combat or trade) there isn't a good way to go about setting up the system to function since mobs and mob regen aren't linked to any intrinsic gave value.

Something that would be needed would be a system to grow food. (food being cash, crops and other materials...)
How much food a mob requires to regen.
A way to trade such food merchandise fairly will only a hint of player abuse. Think trading with an ally or an opposition group. This can be played into the good vs evil dynamic of the game.
This type of thing could open up trade missions that play in with tolls, taxes, and sundry items.

This can be worked into the game also though such as genning orcs with clubs vs orcs with broadswords or even starving orcs that beg you for money ;p . I have to agree with Thanos82 we have a data driven game so there is no reason not to express that data where and when we can to make a more dynamic realm.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: The Crazy Animal on April 12, 2014, 01:06:06 am
More on dynamic tolls:
Right now game tolls are flat tolls for entering an area. This is could be changed so that the game dynamically modifies the tax per player level I.e at level 10 your forest to silvermere toll is the standard but at level 50 it could be higher. For fairness in parties perhaps tax on the avg level of the party tossing out the highest and lowest of the values. This could help cut down on dragging in massive cash values from higher level areas to lower level areas.

Gmud 2 or higher could even try to segregate this between walled and un-walled cities.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Hurricane Omega on April 13, 2014, 10:07:14 am
I haven't paid a silvermere toll yet.  I just take the underground way in and out.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: The Crazy Animal on April 13, 2014, 10:15:26 pm
I haven't paid a silvermere toll yet.  I just take the underground way in and out.

lol.. I think most of us are aware there is a cut around for it. I picked it just because it's a walled city and just about everyone knows there is a toll there. I could have called it goobermere for all that it matters name wise.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Redrum on April 14, 2014, 07:01:50 pm
the fundamental problem with the economy is that monsters drop gold, and that gold is free to them. there is no mint. one way to fix this is to do what happend in diablo. stones of jericho. money was abundant and soj's were rare. hence they became the new form of currency in the game. but it only works for players, npc had no interest in soj's. one could make a useful item in game that players could use ie. long lasting potions or what not. so its not a perfect fix but it address p vs p currency. as for the realm as a whole, you would have to restrict the cash. more along the lines of WoW's economy. limit the amount of cash dropped by any monster. ie. giants would drop like 3 gold max, slumers would drop up to like 3 copper max.
As for the prices of things i dont think much of a change would matter, players will eventually make enough money to purchase items. tho a little price adjustment might be in order in case it would take a lvl 50 to farm enough cash to buy a blue tower item. couple that with a working Gang house shops and you will start to get a handle on the economy. its not perfect but i believe its a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Greater on April 15, 2014, 03:10:21 am
the fundamental problem with the economy is that monsters drop gold, and that gold is free to them. there is no mint. one way to fix this is to do what happend in diablo. stones of jericho. money was abundant and soj's were rare. hence they became the new form of currency in the game. but it only works for players, npc had no interest in soj's. one could make a useful item in game that players could use ie. long lasting potions or what not. so its not a perfect fix but it address p vs p currency. as for the realm as a whole, you would have to restrict the cash. more along the lines of WoW's economy. limit the amount of cash dropped by any monster. ie. giants would drop like 3 gold max, slumers would drop up to like 3 copper max.
As for the prices of things i dont think much of a change would matter, players will eventually make enough money to purchase items. tho a little price adjustment might be in order in case it would take a lvl 50 to farm enough cash to buy a blue tower item. couple that with a working Gang house shops and you will start to get a handle on the economy. its not perfect but i believe its a step in the right direction.

Giant pile of retardation
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Redrum on April 16, 2014, 03:47:59 pm
Giant pile of retardation

thats your whole contribution to the discussion?
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Karl on April 16, 2014, 04:02:41 pm
thats your whole contribution to the discussion?
Big Bert doesn't contribute. He just trolls poorly.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Greater on April 16, 2014, 07:57:45 pm
Big Bert doesn't contribute. He just trolls poorly.

Pot, meet kettle.

the fundamental problem with the economy is that monsters drop gold, and that gold is free to them. there is no mint. one way to fix this is to do what happend in diablo. stones of jericho. money was abundant and soj's were rare. hence they became the new form of currency in the game. but it only works for players, npc had no interest in soj's. one could make a useful item in game that players could use ie. long lasting potions or what not. so its not a perfect fix but it address p vs p currency. as for the realm as a whole, you would have to restrict the cash. more along the lines of WoW's economy. limit the amount of cash dropped by any monster. ie. giants would drop like 3 gold max, slumers would drop up to like 3 copper max.
As for the prices of things i dont think much of a change would matter, players will eventually make enough money to purchase items. tho a little price adjustment might be in order in case it would take a lvl 50 to farm enough cash to buy a blue tower item. couple that with a working Gang house shops and you will start to get a handle on the economy. its not perfect but i believe its a step in the right direction.

What I decipher out of this amalgamation of letters and oddly placed punctuation is that you want this game's economy to be more like Diablo 2 or World of Warcraft. You want a new item to be used as currency, much like the Stone of Jordan (Not Jericho) ended up in Diablo 2. You want every monster that drops cash have the same low generic cash drop max like World of Warcraft. The only other suggestion I saw is that you want prices adjusted so that it takes until level 50 to buy a Blue Tower item.

None of these are good ideas. I'd post alternatives, but I've been around here long enough to see that these threads are just fantasies at the end of the day.





Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Redrum on April 16, 2014, 08:24:09 pm
well since many of the aspects of wow's economy are studied in college economy classes, I figured that it would be a decent system to follow, but since you have no input other than to correct spelling and grammar, i will bow to your obviously superior economic ideas.

sincerely

Someone who is trying to help, and not being a flaming ass.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Greater on April 16, 2014, 08:37:19 pm
well since many of the aspects of wow's economy are studied in college economy classes, I figured that it would be a decent system to follow, but since you have no input other than to correct spelling and grammar, i will bow to your obviously superior economic ideas.

sincerely

Someone who is trying to help, and not being a flaming ass.

PM me your address. I'll mail you a box of tissues.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Greater on April 16, 2014, 08:44:50 pm
And now for something more entertaining:

http://radio.com/2014/04/16/wu-tang-clan-affiliated-rapper-cuts-off-penis-attempts-suicide/
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Jumpin Jack Flash on April 17, 2014, 04:01:54 am
well since many of the aspects of wow's economy are studied in college economy classes, I figured that it would be a decent system to follow

This is all we need.  If we implement a WoW-type economic system in GMud, how long do you think it will be before the Chinese start setting up mining colonies?  The most productive mining areas would be out near the Lost City, meaning LC Bank would be handling the major currency exchanges which would put the Banks of Silvermere, Khaz and Rhud into an economic tailspin, requiring taxpayer bailouts.  And, as we've seen earlier in this post, nobody pays the Silvermere gate tax, so those banks would eventually become insolvent.  Mayor Godfrey would be forced to resort to Mortgage-backed Securities, selling the deeds to the ganghouses to foreign investors (again, the Chinese) and the entire economy of the game would depend upon the Chinese gold miners.  Is this really what you want for the future of GMud?  Huh, is it???
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Jumpin Jack Flash on April 17, 2014, 04:16:49 am
On a more serious note though, the economic system is fine at initial start-up.  It takes quite awhile for a new character to collect enough money to purchase halfway decent armor and weapons.  It's the top-end of the game where money becomes a joke, and pretty much useless.

I used to play a game called Wizard's Crown.  Old-school 8-bit graphics, but still fun.  The game was designed so you could trade money for attribute upgrades or purchase weapon improvements.  It took forever to save up enough money to finally get your weapons maxed out, and by the time this happened, you were ready for the final battle.  I know Mud doesn't really have a "final battle" other than 5th quest, but it continues on after that.  Anyways, maybe implementing some type of "enhanceable" weapon for 5th quest, or armor type that could be upgraded, ie., having Martok and the gnome enchantress add +MR into your adamantite platemail tunic for 5 runic and some spell components, or add a heal spell into your weapon for 100 runic, etc.  I have no programming experience, but I'm sure this is all possible with the talents and skills in this mud community.  Anyways, this would at least give you something to do with all that runic in the bank.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Stalkerr on April 17, 2014, 07:49:34 am
You guys are gonna need a lot more dupes before a complex economic system would really be a possibility.
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: interchange on April 17, 2014, 09:09:38 am
How about mudops have an auction for a rare non-lim item every few days. E.G. plat plate boots, black velvet gloves, etc.?
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Jumpin Jack Flash on April 18, 2014, 10:02:33 am
How about mudops have an auction for a rare non-lim item every few days. E.G. plat plate boots, black velvet gloves, etc.?

This!
Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: The Crazy Animal on April 19, 2014, 02:24:29 am
There is a thread on here somewhere about auction houses already the idea was to have them be an automated as a special type of shop for the most part though ops could list items for sale they wouldn't be the ones in charge of setting it up or running the auction system. Mud-ops already deal with enough issues just from players I'd rather not create more problems for them if I can. If I could set up an in game simulated justice system that is player based I would. Things like who stole my deathpile or inactive players weapons could be part of an economic fix. I've seen parts of these done in other gaming systems. If you look at some of the fish tank games they have feed timers to deal with inactivity. I.e. you have to pay gold for an inactivity timer if you do your exempt for a period from the auto inactivity system. I.e vacation time away from the game. If you don't log in your limited items can be stripped away and automatically added to the auction houses inventory of items to be sold. This creates a little bit of a buffer for mud-ops to since they would only have to deal with game errors in this particular scope then too. As far as using commonality of items in auctions as auto-placed items in auction houses I'll cover this a few paragraphs down.

As for the tolls I'm talking about future of gmud post mmud emulator. There would be new walled cities and new reasons for paying tolls and not paying tolls. Fixing the free way in and out of the towns would be easy simply by adding in a thieves or assassins guild that actually has guild fees. Players not in the guilds could still fight their way through the special semi-free exits if they are big enough to do so it would have it's own risk vs reward set then. Due to this being a data driven game we could even vary the difficulty of the fight your way through based on how many players use this way to cheat the tolls. This takes a data logging system to make it function which brings me to my next paragraph.

I'd really like area of control zones set up that have slow cash regen that can be maxed or drained by player interaction. If the cash resources of the area get drained they stop dropping or dynamically reduce dropping until the resources for the drops replenish. I have some back end tools designed to track this already they are in the wait list to be coded. Even if they end up just being data monitors they can help a realm designer track drop amounts and effects of cash in the game.  One of the big problems we might have to tackle is that I think to have a good solid game start to game end fix is that we might need to simulate an economy with NPC AI agents (independents and groups) to make up for small player groups. I'd like them to interact with the realm just like players would by moving resources from control zone to control zone. Once there are control zones and data loggers in to track things like need for guards or need resources these data switches can control in game events. This creates two new economic models for pvp and pve game realms with some over lap that are based on player interaction. I.e you could stack a control zone via quests, leaving donations, and a few other methods to mess with other players game experiences from the pve side. On the pvp side you can use those pve gained advantages in pvp by laying in wait to ambush your enemy. 

I don't have an issue with gold mining wow style or cash for gold or gold for cash type of systems as any cut from that could go for paying coders or realm designers for their time. A system like that though it does have some back end issues that would be needed before opening it up first. I.e. Making the game open for game engine plugins. In where the main engine is stable and the addons can be added or subtracted with out hurting the stability of the main game engine.

As far as using commonality of non-limited items to base stock auctions I like the idea. However I would like to see the idea developed more. Such as a control zone can have levels based on player interaction the level of a control zone decides on what items and at what rates those common, uncommon, rare, epic rare, and other such grouping come into the game. The effect of this is not to spoil the initial or the long run game but slow it down to what would appear to the player as a natural progression. This could be tied into things like material amounts for each item, such as to have black velvet regen in an auction you have to have a certain amount of black velvet available first before the game spawns them same goes for plat for plat boots. If we could jump the hurdle of coin based economy to a material based economic model I think it would be a good thing for the realm.

We'd love to be able to use data from the auction houses (some of the first post on this type idea were seen to be very acceptable) to vary things in the actual game realm as well. As it was discussed before it would be a great quest for thieves or other similar classes to be able to break into and rob an auction house where as their defenses are varied by the business data numbers that they do.  I.e the more profit they make the harder it becomes and the better the reward so it grows with the player base and the risk to the players putting in their collected items fluctuates based on the in game interaction if they pick the right auction house based on profit point.. The mean average risk should still keep true with what I call the hack and slash average of scripting normality as much as I'd like to make the game hand playable from 1 to 100 levels. Which action houses are better to list your items float from game to game it still holds true to the same system easy control mmud type of interface just localities would differ from game respawn to respawn based on player interaction.

I'd like to find a even medium where safe scripting and hand playing are on equal par. As Win8 has been rolling out and our older scripting platforms do not run anymore we have an opportunity to do this too. If we move to a gold pay in method of scripting you could buy in for a map of an area for a time period and earn a reward with some risk. As I proposed a in game justice system earlier in the post the two ideas can work in tangent for a pvp type of realm an in game frame work would be great as you could post rewards for other players to get back your stuff. In pve only realms this could be covered via npcs. In the overview of the server side system though is that you would buy in time and even if you were offline your character would run as an AI npc mobile object until you log in and choose to emulate (watch) or play. If you die while running it could notify you via email or text msg to tell you there is a problem. Your actions would still effect the game and other players could still interact with you. You could set stuff like invite lists and deposit lists, and where to sell goods that you find. I know it sounds a little complex but it could be built to function perfectly with the data side of the game so it doesn't get lost like mega does and even if you lose your internet connection it wouldn't matter. We could run something like a gold per day map tax or any number of other pay in costs. I can think of lots of ideas based on this that create fun player created custom content that the game can memorize for later use that would make the game fun to read even if your just watching your character run server side. I.e something like a player walking through might read something like a 30% chance of die zombie die based on user interaction. Things like in-game monster death response texts could control this based on player interaction so even after a reset you can leave a mark on the individual server instance of the game. Profanity filters could come later and be rated game instance to game instance based on player votes. Vote per gold even express you ideal in game by what you want to be remembered for your character... Ask me about legendary weapons in another post though...

Title: Re: Fixing economic issues in GMUD - part 2 (Taxes and tolls other fees)
Post by: Deydrania on December 16, 2018, 01:04:44 pm
All you'd need to do in order to stop wealth hoarding is link together all banks and set a 90 runic limit.  Thus, all players would be limited to only having 90 runic in the one and only bank.

And for those that have gang houses- they'd have to actively replenish the bank account.

But all of this is moot.  When a board matures, money is everywhere.  Scripting spots will always fill with money.  You'll see 500 runic in every room of a high level scripting spot.   There's no system that could compensate for this. 

If you impose a very high tax on players of 20 runic a day, what would happen to those who didn't want to constantly haul in silver or gold every single day?   Would the penalty for not paying said taxes stop people from being able to play the game?  If you make the penalty too light, players will simply ignore it and rich people would continue to be rich.  If you make it too heavy, then only the rich people would be able to continue playing. 

If you don't want to have 50,000 runic in your bank account then don't put 50,000 runic in your bank account.  Money will always be an issue at high levels since we have nothing to spend it on.  But having nothing on which to spend it isn't a reason to force taxes and fees and penalties because then you force every player to constantly run scripts to haul coins all day just to keep playing the game.