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[SluTFisHy]

Well I really like where the warlock concept is going, I have always felt warlocks have been an extremely neglected class for a long time. it would be nice to see some slight changes. I was shooting for just main-gauche (i'd be completely happy with that) but anything else is OK with me.
I still think 1 handed wpns are fine for them, but most warlocks NEVER see more then 75 AC. You would need the ABSOLUTE PERFECT suite of armour and most the items to get there are LIM 1 so you wont break 80 ac UNLESS your kang and ONLY Kang(bonus +5 ac). I still think warlocks need better defense spells IMO.

the average AC for a warlcok will be around 65-75/?

I never understood why a warlock, being a warrior/caster type, would be proficient in a whole lot of shitty pointless spells.

If i was a warrior, that wanted to learn mage type spells, you best bet im gonna learn all the shield spells, and damage spells, and combat boosting spells. fuck solid fog.. pfft. (why not give a homie magic armor. cmon??)


seriously, magic armour is +5 ac. ftw... give the warlock a reach around...

[Rorik]

but most warlocks NEVER see more then 75 AC. You would need the ABSOLUTE PERFECT suite of armour and most the items to get there are LIM 1 so you wont break 80 ac UNLESS your kang and ONLY Kang(bonus +5 ac). I still think warlocks need better defense spells IMO.

the average AC for a warlcok will be around 65-75/?

Here's a very basic, non-Kang setup for a level 50 Warlock.  Not nearly heavy, and 0 lims.

Class: Warlock
Race: Half-Orc
Level: 50
Strength: 110

Armour Class: 72.6/9.8  (WITHOUT any defense spells.  You could even go Good and use prev.. I just went Evil as an example.)
Encumberance: 2621/5922 - Medium (44%)

He is equipped with:

lunar chainmail coif           (Head)
cobra earrings                 (Ears)
cat's-eye pendant              (Neck)
tails of battle                (Back)
lunar chainmail hauberk        (Torso)
stormmetal bracers             (Arms)
emerald-studded bracelet       (Wrist)
ogre bone bracelet             (Wrist)
lunar chain gauntlets          (Hands)
gold jeweled ring              (Finger)
gold signet ring               (Finger)
lionskin belt                  (Waist)
lunar chainmail leggings       (Legs)
lunar chainmail boots          (Feet)
severed head of Irikani        (Worn)
blackened wrist guard          (Off-Hand)
abyssal scimitar               (Weapon Hand)

Stats: HitPoints +50, Mana +48, Crits +9, Dodge -6, SpellCast +8, Accuracy +27, Max Damage +21, BS Max Damage +30, Mana Regen +15, Perception +10, Stealth -7, Traps +10, Picklocks +10, Illuminatn +135, Cold Resist -20, Lightning Res. +15

I never understood why a warlock, being a warrior/caster type, would be proficient in a whole lot of shitty pointless spells.

If i was a warrior, that wanted to learn mage type spells, you best bet im gonna learn all the shield spells, and damage spells, and combat boosting spells. ...seriously, magic armour is +5 ac. ftw... give the warlock a reach around...

Warlocks aren't a super-class.  They're a true hybrid between plate and leather/robes, and combat1 and combat5.. average armor, average combat, average hp, average chart.  They're not supposed to be plate chars with magic-2. 

Their buffs are a huge advantage, especially in combat.  With straight up lunar, eth shield and blur (I think?), you should get your AC to right around 80.. with 0 lims and not including any prev (which works less effectively here, I understand.. but it's still an option).  I think that's pretty damn good for being limited to chainmail armor.  It's not a horrible idea to let them use a main-gauche if you're going to let them use a wrist guard, but to moan about how they can't get decent AC is kind of a joke.   And yeah, why not let them have all the best Mage spells combined with solid armor?  Hell, why not create a healing spell for them to use other than vamp or dtch?  That'd be real balanced.   

[Gardner Denver]

With only 4 limited items, no spells.  I know warriors that run around with less AC.
Class: Warlock
Race: Kang
Level: 99
Strength: 120

Armour Class: 89.5/11
Encumberance: 2445/6480 - Medium (37%)

He is equipped with:

lunar chainmail coif           (Head)
skull mask                     (Ears)
spiked obsidian collar         (Neck)
tails of battle                (Back)
scarlet doublet                (Torso)
stormmetal bracers             (Arms)
mithril bracelets              (Wrist)
sunstone wristband             (Wrist)
lunar chain gauntlets          (Hands)
white gold ring                (Finger)
platinum ring                  (Finger)
ogre-skin baldric              (Waist)
lunar chainmail leggings       (Legs)
lunar chainmail boots          (Feet)
diamond emblem                 (Worn)
adamantite wrist guard         (Off-Hand)
abyssal scimitar               (Weapon Hand)

Stats: HitPoints +185, Mana +17, Crits +1, Dodge +4, SpellCast +8, Accuracy +8, Max Damage +18, Shield Damage +3, BS Max Damage +30, HitPoint Regen +25, Mana Regen +35, Perception +10, Stealth -5, Illuminatn +220, Magic Resist +15, Lightning Res. +10

[SluTFisHy]

Here's a very basic, non-Kang setup for a level 50 Warlock.  Not nearly heavy, and 0 lims.

Class: Warlock
Race: Half-Orc
Level: 50
Strength: 110

Armour Class: 72.6/9.8   

uhmm Like I said,

I still think 1 handed wpns are fine for them, but most warlocks NEVER see more then 75 AC. You would need the ABSOLUTE PERFECT suite of armour and most the items to get there are LIM 1 so you wont break 80 ac UNLESS your kang and ONLY Kang(bonus +5 ac). I still think warlocks need better defense spells IMO.

the average AC for a warlcok will be around 65-75/?

With only 4 limited items, no spells.  I know warriors that run around with less AC.
Class: Warlock
Race: Kang
Level: 99
Strength: 120

Armour Class: 89.5/11
Encumberance: 2445/6480 - Medium (37%)

He is equipped with:

lunar chainmail coif           (Head)
skull mask                     (Ears)
spiked obsidian collar         (Neck)
tails of battle                (Back)
scarlet doublet                (Torso)
stormmetal bracers             (Arms)
mithril bracelets              (Wrist)
sunstone wristband             (Wrist)
lunar chain gauntlets          (Hands)
white gold ring                (Finger)
platinum ring                  (Finger)
ogre-skin baldric              (Waist)
lunar chainmail leggings       (Legs)
lunar chainmail boots          (Feet)
diamond emblem                 (Worn)
adamantite wrist guard         (Off-Hand)
abyssal scimitar               (Weapon Hand)

Stats: HitPoints +185, Mana +17, Crits +1, Dodge +4, SpellCast +8, Accuracy +8, Max Damage +18, Shield Damage +3, BS Max Damage +30, HitPoint Regen +25, Mana Regen +35, Perception +10, Stealth -5, Illuminatn +220, Magic Resist +15, Lightning Res. +10

Ok gardner, I figured you'd be observant enough to notice that for one you have a lot of conflicting items on that build

white gold ring - good only
mithril bracelets - neutral only
scarlet doublet - evil only

lol fail fail fail

besides the race is still kang. and 2 of the 4 lims are lim 1..


Anyway, the hinderence or fallback on a warlock was never for them to NOT have "high ac" most average mud player who isn't  wearing a dunce cap knows that the downfall to being a warlock is they lose pretty much all DR.  they can get 5 from frenzy but they lost 5 ac ... DR is usually the trade off. 

[Gardner Denver]

Actually I didn't even look at what MME picked other than to count the limited items.

So I redid it, evil only.  3 limiteds, and it made a big -2/+0.5 difference...
Class: Warlock
Race: Kang
Level: 99
Strength: 120

Armour Class: 87.5/11.5
Encumberance: 2410/6480 - Medium (37%)

He is equipped with:

lunar chainmail coif           (Head)
skull mask                     (Ears)
spiked obsidian collar         (Neck)
tails of battle                (Back)
scarlet doublet                (Torso)
stormmetal bracers             (Arms)
sunstone wristband             (Wrist)
blackened bracelet             (Wrist)
lunar chain gauntlets          (Hands)
platinum ring                  (Finger)
bone ring                      (Finger)
ogre-skin baldric              (Waist)
lunar chainmail leggings       (Legs)
lunar chainmail boots          (Feet)
diamond emblem                 (Worn)
adamantite wrist guard         (Off-Hand)
abyssal scimitar               (Weapon Hand)

Stats: HitPoints +185, Mana +17, Crits +1, Dodge -1, SpellCast +8, Accuracy +10, Max Damage +18, Shield Damage +3, BS Min Damage +10, BS Max Damage +30, Mana Regen +35, Perception +10, Stealth +5, Illuminatn +220, Magic Resist +5, Lightning Res. +10

[Rorik]

That 72 AC was, like I pointed out, WITHOUT any defense spells or prev and without lims.  It was nice how you left that part of my statement out of your quote.  You also said most Warlocks never see above 75.. if you have 72 and cast shld, you'll be above 75 with far from a "perfect suit of armor" and still have decent equipment bonuses.

[Gardner Denver]

Anyway, the hinderence or fallback on a warlock was never for them to NOT have "high ac" most average mud player who isn't  wearing a dunce cap knows that the downfall to being a warlock is they lose pretty much all DR.  they can get 5 from frenzy but they lost 5 ac ... DR is usually the trade off. 

If you understood how the AC/DR system works, you'd know that is a very good trade off.  I'll gladly take 5 off the AC for 5 on the DR.

[SluTFisHy]

gardner. just to clear this up (for no reason) I said ac for the "average" warlock. Not the 1 lucky warlock that managed to stack lims.
If you take away the scarlet doublet, the skull mask, change race from kang to anything else. you get what? barely 78-79 ac. right around what i said. "The Average Warlock". Theres no reason to argue this.

I still haven't figured out what you rorik, or gardner are arguing with me for. are you trying to prove the warlocks have great ac? Yes warlocks have good ac, not "great" when u compare to plate. Great when u compare to silk.
depends on your point of view.

I never said warlocks ac sucks. I just stated why not give them magic armour? (which was the whole premise of the armour statement)
But you trivial people are focusing on the lame introduction to the real statement that needed an opinion.

Why not, instead of focusing on what i said about a warlocks AVG armour class. (which i promise is more accurate then your megamud build) and state how you feel about giving warlocks 1 more armour spell? (which was the actual statement I put out there for open opinion)

now, step off the shortbus fellas, take off your helmets and try again.

"Gardner, That was Rorik's salisbury steak."
"no Rorik, put the fork down.."
"RORIK! I SAID! PUT THE FORK DOWN!  Thats it. You both lost pokemon priveledges until this thread is closed."

[Gardner Denver]

Whatever.  If you want to discuss/debate that's fine.  You don't seem to be able to debate the issue without taking pot shots at the people rather than the ideas, so as far as I'm concerned my involvement with your part of this thread is at an end.

[Gardner Denver]

To go back to the original question posed.  I say no, do not give Warlocks the ability to equip a main gauche.  The additional +10 crits that they could pick up from the bleeding main gauche will simply unbalance the class further.  Warlocks can already obtain +38 crits with the right gear and frenzy.  They can have a 80+/11+ armour class with NO limited weapons AND without going Kang.  I don't see how adding another +10 crits to this will further the goal of balancing the class.

I would however say that if locks were changed back to leather only vs chain then they should be allowed to equip a main gauche type item.

[DeathCow]

Its a near mathematically impossibility for the bleeding main gaunche to increase any characters avg round.

[The Crazy Animal]

To go back to the original question posed.  I say no, do not give Warlocks the ability to equip a main gauche.  The additional +10 crits that they could pick up from the bleeding main gauche will simply unbalance the class further.  Warlocks can already obtain +38 crits with the right gear and frenzy.  They can have a 80+/11+ armour class with NO limited weapons AND without going Kang.  I don't see how adding another +10 crits to this will further the goal of balancing the class.

I would however say that if locks were changed back to leather only vs chain then they should be allowed to equip a main gauche type item.

I'm not interested in getting into the the whole crits part of this at the moment but just because you give them the ability to eq the basic main gauche doesn't mean you need to give them access to every other main gauche in the game. It's not like there aren't ways already in place to maintain balance after giving them the ability to eq this item type.

[DeathCow]

Since we are on the subject.  The arcane tome needs to be made into an item that is somewhat more equal to the LSC.  Anyone have any ideas on what it should do?

[Darmius]

3xDay uses. Doubles SC for 30 rounds

[DeathCow]

I don't want it to be a X uses daily use item.