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[The Crazy Animal]

I'm biasly curious what every one thinks. And I mean biasly as in I won't be expressing any of my own views in this post only asking questions and or possibly follow up questions.

1. If you were to be re-balancing the current mmud classes and races what exp value would you give to them. (exp modifier values should be below 300%)

2. To keep the current exp percentage the same what would you give or take away from each of the current mmud classes and races.

3. For each ability of a class or race what value would you give it. ie. hp bracket to stealth and 1-handed to platemail...

4. In the current attempts to balance the game there are trade offs such as chainmail having negative stealth modifiers. If and where would you consider having combinations of abilities detrimental and or advantagous to a characters playability in terms of exp modifier values to their base values.

[Excarkun]

hmmm was just thinking this today looking over them in mmex...
 Classes:
Missionary/ Gypsy and Bard would make them all combat 3 (which bards are anyways) and 200% but the Missonary gets +1 acc to makeup lack of thievery or can wear chain

Most I see/read on her/Forums that other people say Thief 100%exp combat 3. which I think why not

Witchy.. Why not wear platmail??? they don't get many weapons to choose from anyways..unless a quest weapon.

Races:
Human. charm 90 int 110 str 110 and add 10%
Neko.. I would change the health stat to 90...and a +1 dodge they alrdy 50% exp
if that over powering then also change Wis from 90 to 80.

Dark elf: this race got shit on by metro.IMOP. if we keep 90 str how about like a kang add dr2 ac 2

elf: maybe just like dark elf add dr/ac or more str 100?

half-elf: night vision, some acc 2

gnome:  get rid of lock picking worthless,  +acc 3  wisdom  110

gaunt one: why no one plays this race simple 70 HEALTH.. and the 50%exp get real
 80 health  90 agil and  stealth to keep the 50% or 40% with no stealth

Gobs: 30% 120 int  110 health  but keeping that Super 70 str..

Ok ill Edit this later.. just ad this while taking a break from studying on my mac..
 

[Darmius]

I started to make a list, but I think there are more things that need to be changed than just exp modifiers and abilities.  Core mechanics that need to be fixed in relation to each specific class.  Likes stealth and backstab modifiers.  Class specific spells, gypsy specific magic, not just blanket mage-2 spells.  Learning magic spells of the same type at different levels, for example paladins and priests.  AC/DR at low levels needs to be tweaked, who isn't sick of seeing 4 warriors, 2 paladins 1 WH in every top ten of every new realm?

Given a decent tool set, I'd love to start with base classes.  Warrior, Thief, Priest, Mage.  Balance around that then introduce hybrids.  Rework the entire system from the ground up.  Yet it would take a lot of time, debates and access to code or tools that are not there yet.

Oh well here is classes for now, I'll take a shot at races later.

Code:

Class      Health   Combat    Weapon        Armor         Exp %        Other
WH          Great      5       All          Scale         120         No Magic, +Magic Res, Smash
Warrior     Great      4       All          All           150         Smash, +1 Min Hp
Paladin     Good       4       All          All           200         Priest-1, Smash
Cleric      Medium     3       Blunt        All           175         Priest-2, Smash
Priest      Bad        1       Blunt        Cloth         120         Priest-3
Mage        Bad        1       Staves       Cloth         100         Mage-3
Warlock     Good       3       All          Chain         120         Mage-2
Gypsy       Weak       2       1hd          Leather       100         Mage-2, Dodge, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP
Bard        Medium     2       1hd          Chain         130         Bard, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP
Ninja       Medium     3       All          Cloth         150         Dodge, Crits, Stealth, Locks, Traps, Tracking
Mystic      Medium     3       Staves       Cloth         175         Kai-3, Dodge, Crits,
Thief       Weak       3       1hd          Leather       100         Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP, +Bs Min/Max Dmg
Missy       Weak       2       1hd          Chain         130         Priest-2, Stealth, Locks, Traps
Ranger      Good       4       All          Chain         175         Druid-1, Stealth, Tracking
Druid       Weak       1       Blunt        Leather       120         Druid-3         

Nothing to drastic, but I think class specific abilities would really help differentiate each class.

[SluTFisHy]

I started to make a list, but I think there are more things that need to be changed than just exp modifiers and abilities.  Core mechanics that need to be fixed in relation to each specific class.  Likes stealth and backstab modifiers.  Class specific spells, gypsy specific magic, not just blanket mage-2 spells.  Learning magic spells of the same type at different levels, for example paladins and priests. 

I love the idea darmius. Having each race have more beneficial traits making them more worth choosing.

and Excarkun, This isn't a christmas wish list ~ lol

and BTW.. Picklocks on gnomes.. Is fucking fantastic. That's why I personally love gnomes.

[DeathCow]

I believe that the races should be balanced so that they no longer need to add to exp charts, then should basically be equal, with their own str and weaknesses.

The exp % on classes would be more difficult to remove as for balancing the classes it would require changing both the classes and the items...and spells..

So I'd keep the charts.  I see no reason to raise the thief to 100% just for combat 3.  They suck now, I'd gladly over adjust them into a playable character.

As things are now, I like Warriors at 100% they seem to me, what should be the stample.  So I'd base other charts off the warrior.  Which will adjust every other class downward.  Most of the classes would be 90-100% range for charts. Thieves would probably stay at 80% because I'm jsut against anything lower.  I'd happily add new thief abilities as the first 'new' feature in the coding for greatermud though.  Paladins would stay at the high end at 200%  Obviously mystics no longer are worth the 250%.

I think that when it comes down to usefulness and abilities most classes are fairly equal, but in ability to gain exp some have it easier.

And picklocks on gnomes is awesome, for mages in dark-elves.

[Darmius]

I believe that the races should be balanced so that they no longer need to add to exp charts, then should basically be equal, with their own str and weaknesses.

I agree with this!  Finally you might see a human in the game.

Code:

Armor Combat Abilities Abilities
Cloth 0 1 0 PP     5 Tracking 5
Leather 5 2 5 PL       5 MagicRes +? 5
Chain 10 3 10 Traps    5 MartialArts 10
Scale 15 4 15 Stealth  5 No Magic -10
Plate 20 5 20 Crit     5
Dodge    5
Weapon Health Magic-1 20
Staff 5 Bad 0 Magic-2 15
1hd blade 5 Weak 5 Magic-3 10
1hd blunt 5 Medium 10 Smash 10
2hb blade 5 Good 15 SuperStealth 10
2hd blunt 5 Great 20 Meditate 10

Classes
Warrior 120
WH 100
Paladin 135
Cleric 85
Priest 65
Mage 60
Druid 85
Warlock 95
Gypsy 85
Bard 105
Miss 90
Ninja 85
Mystic 90
Ranger 110
Thief 60

This is using excel and summation of class skills to determine exp modifiers.  This would just need abilities balanced against each other.  PP isn't really equal to the value of stealth imo.  More though would have to go into this, but it's a decent baseline.

I think it would be really cool to have dynamic character classes.  The above skills can be bought with skill points.  So every character would get, say 3 skill points at class creation to spend any way they want.  Then every 5 levels you get a new skill point that you can spend (say via a quest) to get a new skills.  Each skill adds to your exp modifer so they higher level and more evolved your class becomes the longer it takes to level.  Why does every warrior have to be equal?

[MudHunter]

Honestly the plate issue could bhe addressed by making plate gear level restricted. Say chain at 10th, scale at 25th, plate at 35th.

Would make for a much more interesting start to the game.

[The Crazy Animal]

This is using excel and summation of class skills to determine exp modifiers.  This would just need abilities balanced against each other.  PP isn't really equal to the value of stealth imo.  More though would have to go into this, but it's a decent baseline.

I think it would be really cool to have dynamic character classes.  The above skills can be bought with skill points.  So every character would get, say 3 skill points at class creation to spend any way they want.  Then every 5 levels you get a new skill point that you can spend (say via a quest) to get a new skills.  Each skill adds to your exp modifer so they higher level and more evolved your class becomes the longer it takes to level.  Why does every warrior have to be equal?

In the excel summation:
Are the exp modifies per point increase in abilities such as Dodge, Crits, Acc, Enc? Just asking to clarify since I could see someone stating it either way.

I'm going to assume if dynamic classes were in place the base exp table would need to be addressed and changed. However from what you said "Each skill adds to your exp modifier...." At some point the level grind at high levels already can make it take a long time to level at high levels and creates a disability to level without relying on drastic amounts of scripting. Which in turn lowers atk player time. At what point in your stated long time to level do you think that it should be come difficult to level with out relying heavily on scripting?

In terms of the types of magic rather than just their ratings would you alter those modifier values any? i.e high damage, good damage, fair damage, weak damage... Similar for buff, curse, and heal... With in regard to the individual Margery groups rather then just the mana gain or regen gain of their ratings.

[Darmius]

In the excel summation:
Are the exp modifies per point increase in abilities such as Dodge, Crits, Acc, Enc? Just asking to clarify since I could see someone stating it either way.

In the long run I think that would be the best way.  Maybe giving Crits 1, 2, 3, with (increasing/static) costs per point.  There would probably have to be counter balances at some point depending on level caps.  Or else everyone will have plate/priest-1/etc... easy mode builds.  I think a good way to augment this without being specific is to use quests, race and alignment.  But this would get complex and require area's with dynamic monster's. Maybe the same quest would be used for priest-1, but getting it at lvl 5 or lvl 50 there has to be some sort of challenge.

I'm going to assume if dynamic classes were in place the base exp table would need to be addressed and changed.

This depends on negative exp modifier attributes, but maybe everyone starting at 100 or some arbitrary number would be best.

However from what you said "Each skill adds to your exp modifier...." At some point the level grind at high levels already can make it take a long time to level at high levels and creates a disability to level without relying on drastic amounts of scripting. Which in turn lowers atk player time. At what point in your stated long time to level do you think that it should be come difficult to level with out relying heavily on scripting?

Isn't this already an issue in the current state of the game?  Level caps are the easy way to stop this, but what then? There have been idea's thrown around for years.  I think this is attributed to content, or lack thereof.  New content has to keep flowing or the game gets stale.  One way to combat (stealing from modern MMO's) create area's that are group only.  Some place people can go on the weekend and tackle harder instances as group only.  Regen and monster strength would balance itself to the group. 

Apply this to Ancient Ruins, everyone has been there in group.  We all remember at least one trip through, getting the first drops. Around lvl 30 plate starts soloing the place for absurd amounts of exp.  And groups quit going there.  Imagine in if the entry points triggered all mobs in the area to "level up/down" in accordance with the player's levels on the map.  Apply min/max caps to the zones and you have an area that will provide group content for more than lvl's 20-25.  Provide experience bonuses in these area's and people will be more apt to play atk's and in groups.

In terms of the types of magic rather than just their ratings would you alter those modifier values any? i.e high damage, good damage, fair damage, weak damage... Similar for buff, curse, and heal... With in regard to the individual Margery groups rather then just the mana gain or regen gain of their ratings.

This falls back on redoing the magic system.  I know someone had a post a few years ago on spell circles.  I do like the idea.

My take on it is doing something like, example:

Code:

      Life
        |
Earth   |   Water
     \  |  /
        *
     /  |  \     
  Fire  |  Wind
        |
      Death

so lets rate spell ranks from 1-3.
Say you take Life-1, you loose access to Death-3
Life-2 you loose access to Death-2, Fire-3, Wind-3
Life-3 you loose access to Death-1, Fire-2, Wind-2, Water-3, Earth-3
So next you take Water-1, you loose Fire-1.

So at max level you could have Life-3, Water-2 Earth-2.  Your center point is Life

Add in exp mods for each Magic point in general 5, 10, 15 ... 35.  So you'd have 35% exp mod in this instance.

Now add enhancements to this mana regen, max mana, +hit, +dmg, +crit, etc...

Converting a current spell to this:
Magma blast Fire-2 Earth-2
Earthquake earth-3

Or ranking spells
You have a fire shield at fire-1 that does a tiny bit of AC, rfir and shockshield
At fire-3 same stats but more powerful


Hmm I should probably do some work today, but you can get a general idea.

[DeathCow]

I still want to use the spell circles idea.  I'm more than willing to make that work when the time comes.

[DeathCow]

Code:

Class      Health   Combat    Weapon        Armor         Exp %        Other
WH          Great      5       All          Scale         120         No Magic, +Magic Res, Smash
Warrior     Great      4       All          All           100         Smash, +1 Min Hp
Paladin     Good       4       All          All           250         Priest-1, Smash
Cleric      Medium     3       Blunt        All           180         Priest-2, Smash
Priest      Bad        1       Blunt        Cloth         140         Priest-3
Mage        Bad        1       Staves       Cloth         130         Mage-3
Warlock     Great      3       1hd          Chain         150         Mage-2
Gypsy       Weak       2       1hd          Leather       150         Mage-2, Dodge, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP
Bard        Medium     3       1hd          Leather       150         Bard, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP
Ninja       Medium     3       All          Cloth         160         Dodge, Crits, Stealth, Locks, Traps, Tracking
Mystic      Medium     3       Staves       Cloth         220         Kai-3, Dodge, Crits,
Thief       Weak       3       1hd          Leather       80          Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP, +Bs Min/Max Dmg
Missy       Weak       2       1hd          Leather       150         Priest-2, Stealth, Locks, Traps
Ranger      Good       4       All          Leather       170         Druid-1, Stealth, Tracking
Druid       Weak       2       Blunt        Leather       170         Druid-3          

Besides exp charts I gave warlocks more HPs, and thieves combat-3.  Discuss.

[kalus]

Warrior too low and Paladin too high. Adding priest-1 and taking away a hp/level is worth +150%?

Mystic too high. They are not all that solo and at high levels they don't compete with big 2-handers

[schwagg]

*

[DeathCow]

Class	Health	Combat	Weapon	Armor	Exp %	Magic	Other
WH	Great	5	All	Scale	120	None	Anti-Magic, Smash
Warrior	Great	4	All	All	130	None	Smash
Paladin	Good	4	All	All	250	Priest-1	Smash
Cleric	Medium	3	Blunt	All	180	Priest-2	Smash
Priest	Bad	1	Blunt	Cloth	140	Priest-3	None
Mage	Bad	1	Staves	Cloth	140	Mage-3	None
Warlock	Great	3	1hd	Chain	160	Mage-2	None
Gypsy	Weak	2	1hd	Leather	170	Mage-2	Dodge +10, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP
Bard	Medium	3	1hd	Leather	150	Bard-3	Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP
Ninja	Medium	3	All	Ninja	160	None	Dodge +25, Crits, Stealth, Locks, Traps
Mystic	Medium	3	Staves	Cloth	220	Kai-3	Dodge +25, Crits
Thief	Weak	3	1hd	Leather	80	None	Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP
Missy	Weak	2	1hd	Leather	150	Priest-2	Stealth, Locks, Traps
Ranger	Good	4	All	Chain	230	Druid-1	Stealth, Tracking
Druid	Weak	2	Blunt	Leather	170	Druid-3	None

After last night's discussion of the charts I've revisted mine a bit.  After reading Schwagg's version, I realized that the original chart I copied had Dodge included as a gypsy ability  Thinking back on the last time I played a gypsy a small dodge boost doesn't seem like a bad plan for gypsies, so I've kept it in this revision, giving them a +10 dodge bonus.  This bonus complements a gypsy's defensive strong point, without being overly drastic.

Schwagg's version had altered Warlocks quite a bit.  And where an all weapons mage-1 class is not an unacceptable class, I think its a different class. As such I've left warlocks in their traditional form but I am open to other ideas for the class.  I lowered a warlocks chart quite a bit because I feel that the class is overall fairly lack-luster with few real strengths, but they don't have many weaknesses.  I liked the idea of letting warlocks have a strong base HP as ssort of a class highlight. As such I slightly raised my previous chart.

I raised warriors by a modest 30% to reflect on the general consensus that they are a very durable and somewhat powerful class.

Witchunters leave me at a sort of sore point.  I feel that all they need is a little TLC in future content update to become a completely viable class.  As of right now, however they are quite dull.  I see uses for them however, and because of that I only lowered their chart slightly.

Many classes have had their 15 minutes, but Paladins have been the reigning champions since 1.11m.  As such I've seen it to raise their exp charts to the top of the line.  I feel strongly that they are deserving of the increase, and that they will remain a highly played class even with the top exp chart.

Clerics seem as though they'd be quite powerful, but in play they tend to simply be acceptable.  They may even be the best balanced class in the game.  A defensive powerhouse that gives up their offensive ability.  I feel that this class was just about perfect except that their chart were a little high for the game play they provided, as such I lowered their chart. (Perhaps too much)

Priests are a great class, with many ways to play them, a variety of strengths and obvious weaknesses.  The only change I considered for them was raising their charts but with their inability to effectively solo the first 35+ levels, I decided to leave them as is.

I can't decide how useful mages actually are.  In groups they can be unstoppable, but, how often does that actually happen?  I had lowered them slightly, now I've decided to just leave them.  They biggest weakness they have is content based, They'll need to be fixed that way.

Bards are a well balanced class, a slightly lowered chart can help to make them able to compete for the top ranks on any board.

Ninjas are an all around weak class, except when hunting big game.  not really sure what the best chart would be for them, I took a stab at it.

I did hear an arguement that mystics are fantastic, in truth I feel that they are infact a very strong class.  But I feel that they only really shine from level 30-50

Thieves needed help, they got increased combat.

Missy's are about right, they are a fun class that wass simply over priced.

Rangers, I like the idea of rangers in chain with a slightly lowered chart.  I'll stick with that until i get a better suggestion..

Druids seem to do what they should, I gave them a slight downard nudge on their chart.

I need to proof read this, I'm just sending to save it atm.

[Thergin]

I totally agree with Deathcows table and suggestion, as much as I would like to see warriors stay 100% as a base, and have everyone else dropped. It is a little harder to balance.

I also think making all races comparable is a good idea, and maybe shave of the extreams, like 150 str and 150 health on half ogre.

If we do keep the exp table adjustment for races, how about making human negative -10 or something.