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DeathCow

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Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« on: September 14, 2010, 04:30:20 am »
This is a sort of boom, several changes at once aimed at tackling balance issues in the game.  I am aware that some of it is odd and changes classes quite a bit..like Paladins as combat-3



ClassHealthCombatWeaponArmorExp %MagicOther
Witchunter6-10   5AllScale140NoneAnti-Magic1, Smash2
Warrior6-10   4AllAll140NoneSmash2
Paladin5-9   3AllAll220Priest-1Smash2
Cleric4-8   3BluntAll180Priest-2Smash2,Meditate3
Priest3-6   1BluntCloth140Priest-3Meditate3
Mage3-6   1StavesCloth140Mage-3Meditate3
Warlock6-10   31hdScale160Mage-2Meditate3
Gypsy4-7   31hdLeather170Mage-2Dodge +10, Stealth, Locks, Traps, PP,Meditate3
Bard4-7   31hdLeather150Bard-3Stealth5, Locks, Traps
Ninja4-8   3AllNinja160NoneDodge +25, Crits +10, Stealth5, Locks, Traps, Tracking, Accuracy +10
Mystic4-8   3StavesCloth210Kai-3Dodge +25, Crits +10, Stealth5, Martial Arts
Thief4-7   31hdLeather80NoneStealth4,5, Locks, Traps, PP
Missionary4-7   31hdLeather150Priest-2Stealth5, Locks, Traps,Meditate3
Ranger5-9   4AllChain200Druid-1Stealth5, Tracking
Druid3-6   2BluntLeather170Druid-3Meditate3
Wardancer5-9   4AnyCloth190Mage-1Stealth5,


#RaceExp %HPStrIntWillAgiHealthCharmAbilities
1Human-10%040-10040-10040-10040-10040-10040-100None
2Dwarf30%050-11030-9050-12030-9050-12030-85M.R. +10, Illu +75, Encum +20
3Gnome20%035-9045-11040-10045-11040-10035-90M.R. +5, Illu+65, Picklocks
4Halfling25%-120-6030-9040-10060-15040-10040-100Stealth, Dodge +10
5Elf45%035-9050-12040-10050-12030-8050-120Illu+50, Stealth, MaxMana +10
6Half-Elf15%040-9045-11040-10045-11030-8050-110MaxMana +10, Illu +25
7Dark-Elf45%040-9050-12030-10050-12030-9040-110Illu +80, Stealth, Crits +1, Accuracy +3
8Half-Orc0%045-11030-9030-9540-10050-12030-80None
9Goblin35%030-7045-11540-10055-12540-10040-100Illu +65, Stealth
10Half-Ogre30%170-15020-6025-7020-6060-15025-60M.R.+15, DR+2
11Kang35%055-12030-9045-11030-9050-11030-85ImmuPoison +100, Dr +1, AC +5
12Nekojin50%040-10040-10030-9060-13030-8050-110Stealth, Illu+50, Tracking, Rfir+10, Rcol-10
13Gaunt One20%040-10060-15050-10050-11030-7030-80Illu +200, Percep +10
14Vitterfolk35%040-11040-12010-4020-8050-13030-70Illu+75, HPrgen +300, rfir-50, rwat-50
15Pixie-20%030-9040-12040-12040-12010-4030-100Illu +50, Dodge +50
16Frogite40%-135-9040-10050-13040-12030-9035-100Illu +25, Stealth, Swimming6, PoisonImmu +100


1Antimagic will have its cap removed, meaning (at 200 mr)100% resist of damage and 100% resistance of Resist type Yes spells(Yes type spells are the direct damage and curse type spells, meaning that it is normal for a player's MR to be applied). Resist type No spells(no type spells are healing and bless spells, a player wouldn't normally resist these spells) will resist at 1/2 the rate of Yes type spells.  Never spells(Never spells are like quest spells and Non-magical type spells) will not be effected by antimagic.
2Witchunters at level 20, Warriors at level 22, Paladins and Clerics at 25, rangers will be removed from this quest.
3Mages, Druids, Priests at level 20, Clerics, Warlocks, Gypsies, Missionaries at level 22, Rangers, Bards, and Paladins are removed from this quest.
4Thieves will get enhanced stealth(+5 per alignment quest and +5 at level 1), enhances backstabs (+5 min/max per alignment quest and +5 at level 1). Also their 2nd quest bonus will be enhanced from 10 max/min to 15 max/min and from 2 stealth to 25 stealth.
5Includes access to superstealth quest.
6Swimming will be implemented with a Asitem {item number} ability.  It will be as though the swimmer has the item wooden skiff and gnomish fishing helm in their inventory for resisting spells and item checks.
Health: Warlocks and thieves are both upgraded
Armour: Rangers and Warlocks are both upgraded
Combat: Paladins become combat-3, all hybrid classes are now combat-3
Other: The pickpocket command(rob) is now restricted to gypsies and thieves.


As part of the balancing scheme the player ACC formula should be changed.  The stats from the equation should be changed from ((Strength - 50) / 3) + ((Agility - 50) / 6) to ((Agility - 50) / 3) + ((Intellect - 50) / 6) + ((Charm - 50) / 6)

If we make this change, perhaps it would be best to not change the AC vs ACC formula for players, and only update the monster formula(Or I could manually adjust every monster's ACC).  Currently we are using AC/ACC=Missrate...I believe that AC/2ACC=Missrate would make our current setup the same as current mmud.  I could be wrong on that, these formulas remain a mystery to us. :(

I'd like to install an adaption of the NMR addon, seen here. At the same time this update goes in the monster database will updated with adjustments on every mob that uses effected spells so that they do not gain upgraded damage.

QND bonus should be changed from 20/10 to 10/5(light/medium), also maximum swings adjusted from 5 to 6.

Dodge wil be adjusted from a raw percentage to Dodge/Acc=Dodge rate.  This is more intune with mmud, But it may have dodge rates still being too high and Might need to be adjusted to Dodge/2Acc=Dodge rate.


Crits should be adjust to begin scaleing at 40% and to not just randomly cap out at 65%.  With proper scaleing the maximum crits a player will be able to pull will be around 70%..but that will be with some crazy bonuses.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 03:55:02 am by DeathCow »

Offline PTERY

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2010, 06:12:30 am »
Seems like a very thorough and balanced overhaul. I don't know if this is concrete or if things are still open to debate. I will assume the latter.

-Gypsies seem a little overpowered with the dodge addition and only a 170 chart.
-I won't called thieves overpowered but a pixie thief, for example, would have a crippling backstab and only a 60% chart. Could be abused on pvp realms unless pvp caps are made more liberal (unlim after lvl 40) or removed altogether.
-Wardancers casting sped can be full qnd with the wbs before level 50. I always liked how speed spells were restricted to 1h classes...
-Elves: 45% chart and 80 health is still a hard sell...

DeathCow

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2010, 07:23:59 am »
Seems like a very thorough and balanced overhaul. I don't know if this is concrete or if things are still open to debate. I will assume the latter.
Its not concrete and I'll happily discuss any of it.  I just ask that if you disagree with me you try to make a clear argument as to why.  It doesn't help me to understand something if I just get a response like "I don't think missionaries should be 150%." Two different people could say this to me and mean two entirely different things, for example one person could say Leather armour is aweful they should be lower, while another says GRHE owns! they should be higher.  Either way you'd like to argue the more support you can give the more likely I'll change my mind.

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-Gypsies seem a little overpowered with the dodge addition and only a 170 chart.
Oh man..I like the way that sounds.  The idea here is to make each of the classes stack up against each other better.  Now, I really don't want to make a class overpowered and gypsies are jumping from combat-2 -> combat 3 and gaining 10% dodge...AND having a lowered chart...but they were really under powered before and the numbers speak to that, as only 2% of the characters listed on turbo are gypsies. First it was Mystics...then bards, then mystics, then Paladins and Warriors....would this usher in the era of Gypsies?  Probably not ;).  I guess I could be making a mistake here, and I'm certain that if I am any mistake that has been made will be shown to me(one way or another) by players.
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-I won't called thieves overpowered but a pixie thief, for example, would have a crippling backstab and only a 60% chart. Could be abused on pvp realms unless pvp caps are made more liberal (unlim after lvl 40) or removed altogether.
The only issue with thieves isn't that they are powerful, its mostly that they are a sort of no risk kinda character when they can be power-leveled.  I suppose with that low chart you could simply out lives someone else in pvp.  There are options to help control power leveling if that became a noticeable issue, also thieves may be at too low of a chart after these changes.  I'm willing to bet that after playing pixies they'll either be removed are redone altogether.  I remember them from dreamscape and they were really fun and enjoyable, but this was mod-2.

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-Wardancers casting sped can be full qnd with the wbs before level 50. I always liked how speed spells were restricted to 1h classes...
Weapon: wicked bone scythe (876)
Swings: 4/5/4/5/5/4/5/5/4/5
Energy Remaining: 140/65/205/130/55/195/120/45/185/110
Energy per swing: 215, Raw swing: 4.6512, QND Crits: None
Combat: 4 (Good), Level: 50, Agility: 100, Strength: 110, Encumbrance: 1000/5640 (17%), Speed: Fast (85)
Yeah..thats pretty mean..It might become necessary to make speed mage-2 and fill in with a weaker version of the spell. I'd like to point out that extending max swings from 5 to 6 will make the larger weapon hit QND at later levels.  If I have something wrong with my swing calculation lemme know..the numbers are pull from my ass.
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-Elves: 45% chart and 80 health is still a hard sell...
With the change of ((Strength - 50) / 3) + ((Agility - 50) / 6) to ((Agility - 50) / 3) + ((Intellect - 50) / 6) + ((Charm - 50) / 6), Elves will actually be pulling more ACC than they were before the 1.11m changes.  Prior to 1.11m Elves were considered one of the best races both in terms of combat and spellcasting.   When the high health, high str races became king in the acc department using a low health race just became ridiculous.  Hopefully this won't remain the case with that change.  It is exactly this change which prompted to not make alterations to the charts of Dark-elves/elves.  Of course, prior to 1.11m extreme high level characters were far more rare, and lower acc races can begin to catch up...but unless someone else has the desire to really dissect it and dive into the math we'd have to run it in a realm to find out for sure.

Offline PTERY

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2010, 07:50:36 am »
Re: Gypsies. I think gypsies are a decent class even now, chart aside. To me, as they stand, a 140% chart would be reasonable, i.e. choosing between class stealth (gypsy) or better spells (mage). A 170 chart with combat-3 and 10% dodge isn't ridiculous or anything, it just seemed a little much at a glance. Maybe 170, 10% dodge and combat-2? Then again there could be much worse things in mud than an influx of gypsies.

Re: Thieves, a human thief would be a 70% chart and could still be really annoying as a script killer. I think the real aim of my original remark (now that I think about it) is pvp caps in general. The current 14-level range is too restrictive, especially at higher levels.

Re: Sped/wardancers...it slipped my mind that the whole qnd system would be significantly altered with a move from 5 to 6 swings. Still, sped+2h might be risky business. I like your idea of making sped mage-2 and creating a weaker mage-1 version. As an aside,  the current mage-2 offerings need some work...a room spell stronger than bliz but weaker than the current 5th-quest mage spells would go a long way to providing balance there imo...

Re: elves...that makes more sense. I'm glad str is being taken out of the acc calculation altogether.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 08:34:53 am by DeathCow »

DeathCow

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2010, 08:34:28 am »
Quote
Re: Gypsies. I think gypsies are a decent class even now, chart aside. To me, as they stand, a 140% chart would be reasonable, i.e. choosing between class stealth (gypsy) or better spells (mage). A 170 chart with combat-3 and 10% dodge isn't ridiculous or anything, it just seemed a little much at a glance. Maybe 170, 10% dodge and combat-2? Then again there could be much worse things in mud than an influx of gypsies.
I moved alot of the combat-2 classes to combat-3 based entirely around the way player ACC is calculated. At low levels the ACC difference is drastic while at higher levels...I wouldn't say insignificant but certainly not as pronounced.  As the purpose here was balance I felt that these combat-2 classes needed to be able to contribute to fighting bosses(or even solo bosses).  They just don't right now, at least not at the same levels other classes can.   I wouldn't be opposed to making a combat-2.5 which would calculate ACC as combat-3 but calculate swings as combat-2.

*There is a large issue with the creation of higher level content and the way ACC is calculated. In order to make a "Level 50+" area you've got to make the mobs have more HP, more AC etc..But if you're going to make a level 50+ area that combat-2 classes could ever play around in, you'd have to make the AC low enough that they can hit the mobs.  Which means that the Combat-4 classes will be playing around in the Level 50+ area earlier than you intend.  This is a major flaw in MMUD that can't really be fixed but this change helps.

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Re: Thieves, a human thief would be a 70% chart and could still be really annoying as a script killer. I think the real aim of my original remark (now that I think about it) is pvp caps in general. The current 14-level range is too restrictive, especially at higher levels.
I favor unlimited PVP.  I think that to make that work in a realm with as many players as we support we'd need a few more lower reward but safe for scripting areas(such as ivory golem and zealots).  I dunno if I'm seeing where this is going with thieves because you weren't too clear, but if you mean that they could be powerleveled and that would be annoying...Yeah, its not really changing that much, I'm really only adding about 30ish damage to that incoming backstab.  Although if the realm becomes rampant with thieves because these changes are imbalanced the nerf stick is always an option and charts or bonuses could be adjusted.

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Re: Sped/wardancers...it slipped my mind that the whole qnd system would be significantly altered with a move from 5 to 6 swings. Still, sped+2h might be risky business. I like your idea of making sped mage-2 and creating a weaker mage-1 version. As an aside,  the current mage-2 offerings need some work...a room spell stronger than bliz but weaker than the current 5th-quest mage spells would go a long way to providing balance there imo...
I'm kinda in the opposite camp and thinking that more access to direct damage spells might help out.  For speed I was thinking that the spell could be altered(same cost) to be Speed +90.  Then a second party effecting long lasting spell would be speed +94.  These spells would be stackable and in combination would give the same bonus as Speed does now.  The Speed +94 spell would be made affordable for Magic-2s to cast.

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Re: elves...that makes more sense. I'm glad str is being taken out of the acc calculation altogether.
Yeah thats always bothered me.

Offline Void

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2010, 08:46:13 am »
I think ptery kind of nailed the stand outs.  Overall it looks much better than default balance.  Warlocks look a bit more interesting with more hp and armor.  Combat 3 1h or combat 2 for gypsy/thief/Missy has a greater impact on levelling solo imo.  At higher levels the difference will be slight on acc I think?  Will give greater weapon selection at midlevels.  I know how dependent I am (gypsy) on speed for all weapons other than
rapier until maybe level 40ish.  The dodge bonus fits nicely with the gypsy mystique mirroring their custom set of eq.  I could see a higher chart than 170.

Along the same lines I anticipate a lot of wardancers just for the pure physical combat power.   4 and speed and all weapons - but then again the modification to qnd bonus will reduce the benefit there... I like that.  I think that works for me.  :)

I still see that if you can tangle or hold a thief even with combat 3 and slightly higher hp - it will still die.  Take away the high bs and it still go squish.  Scripts will be easier to bs to death but then again it's easy as hell to kill a script as is.  Same 80 chart but this makes thieves a little more interesting for purposes other than vault robbing... Works for me too.

I feel like bards are a little lacking as they already had combat 3 and losing med and pp.  (not the end of the world). Chart has come down a lot. Maybe 4-8 health to re add some appeal?  Same combat and songs but a tad more survivability unless there is a concensus they are overpowered now.

Ps I love the acc redesign.  :). I've only been back in the mud for a month now so I'm pretty rusty but just adding my thoughts.

DeathCow

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 08:59:52 am »
I think ptery kind of nailed the stand outs.  Overall it looks much better than default balance.  Warlocks look a bit more interesting with more hp and armor.  Combat 3 1h or combat 2 for gypsy/thief/Missy has a greater impact on levelling solo imo.  At higher levels the difference will be slight on acc I think?  Will give greater weapon selection at midlevels.  I know how dependent I am (gypsy) on speed for all weapons other than
rapier until maybe level 40ish.  The dodge bonus fits nicely with the gypsy mystique mirroring their custom set of eq.  I could see a higher chart than 170.
I played gypsies fairly often and they were always close to having a nice defense but never quite got there for me.  This +10 dodge does alot to help them out at lower levels and some minor content for them would give them a solid defense.  Missionaries have access to large amount of prev to stack with leather AC and minor dodge abilities..Its always seemed to me that gypsies could use a little bonus defensively.

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Along the same lines I anticipate a lot of wardancers just for the pure physical combat power.   4 and speed and all weapons - but then again the modification to qnd bonus will reduce the benefit there... I like that.  I think that works for me.  :)
I personally have always felt that when I look at dancers on paper they seem powerful.  But when I see them in realms(normally at combat-5) they don't really pull off the overpoweredness I expected.  I dunno though.  It is 2010 though, its about time dancers were part of the game.

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I still see that if you can tangle or hold a thief even with combat 3 and slightly higher hp - it will still die.  Take away the high bs and it still go squish.  Scripts will be easier to bs to death but then again it's easy as hell to kill a script as is.  Same 80 chart but this makes thieves a little more interesting for purposes other than vault robbing... Works for me too.
Ya know the increased HP on thieves can be dropped..Its really not a huge difference its something like .4 extra hps per level. I'm going to change them back to 4-7 now.

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I feel like bards are a little lacking as they already had combat 3 and losing med and pp.  (not the end of the world). Chart has come down a lot. Maybe 4-8 health to re add some appeal?  Same combat and songs but a tad more survivability unless there is a concensus they are overpowered now.
Bards are seriously more powerful in Gmud than they are in MMUD with the removal of 10 spelling. With that in mind, do you still feel the same way?


Offline Void

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 09:07:32 am »
Actually nope bards are fine lol I forgot about the removal of spell cap.  Bring on the dancers!

Offline Gardner Denver

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2010, 09:39:45 am »
My 2 cents worth:

No player should ever be able to get higher than a 75% resist 75% damage reduction when it comes to spells.  If you can't survive being hit 25% of the time for 25% of the damage others take perhaps you need to pick a different class to play or umm quit.

If you go from 5 max to 6 max on swings, the entire concept of qnd crit bonuses should be thrown out the window.  Once you hit qnd you get that 6th swing and that's it.

Offline Prescience

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2010, 09:59:53 am »
I think Witchhunters should be given +X Accuracy too. OR, just +X vs caster-3 classes.

X = 10 or 20 or something along those lines.

As previously stated, combat-5 has no real benefit over combat-4 because hunter +accuracy items are limited. I think they should be given +accuracy to compensate for poor item choices. You can justify it with the following text, "Witchhunters intense concentration and training allows them to resist spells and provides an advantage in combatting magic casters."

I think this simple improvement would dramatically improve the hunter class.

Offline PTERY

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2010, 10:00:48 am »
No player should ever be able to get higher than a 75% resist 75% damage reduction when it comes to spells.  If you can't survive being hit 25% of the time for 25% of the damage others take perhaps you need to pick a different class to play or umm quit.
WH's need something though. What about a mana dampen ability? It could either be something they invoke themselves or something that is automatically activated when they're attacked. Something like the jeweled viper death spell.

DeathCow

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2010, 10:02:21 am »
My 2 cents worth:

No player should ever be able to get higher than a 75% resist 75% damage reduction when it comes to spells.  If you can't survive being hit 25% of the time for 25% of the damage others take perhaps you need to pick a different class to play or umm quit.
I'm also purposing an increase in spell power for casters, so in theory, from a caster's POV they would probably elect to allow the 100% resistance on hunters over not gaining the spell upgrade.  That said, this upgrade isn't intended to balance out against the caster's upgrade, its intended to help with balancing hunters.  I imagine magic immunity as the natural progression of a hunter's abilities.  I feel like it makes hunter's more attractive, and I don't see it really hurting anyone else..I mean 75% really is good enough, but 100% thats purdy. Also it makes room for adding in some -MR curses.

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If you go from 5 max to 6 max on swings, the entire concept of qnd crit bonuses should be thrown out the window.  Once you hit qnd you get that 6th swing and that's it.
I think that for the most part players tend to like QND until the issue of 1 round PVP comes up.  I've purposed scaling down the QND bonus somewhat, and I know that isn't what your looking for, but its a step inbetween.  Anyone else have any thoughts or feelings on this?  I personally am not too attached to QND, but I feel like alot of the player base would no favor removing it from the game.

Offline Gardner Denver

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2010, 10:08:51 am »
Also it makes room for adding in some -MR curses.

That would be resisted 100% of the time...........................................................................................

WH's need something though. What about a mana dampen ability? It could either be something they invoke themselves or something that is automatically activated when they're attacked. Something like the jeweled viper death spell.

Now this I could get behind.  This is a reasonable change.  I don't think it should be something they invoke as that implies magic. 

DeathCow

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2010, 10:15:22 am »
That would be resisted 100% of the time...........................................................................................
Right..because thats how I'd build a spell designed for this...

Offline Prescience

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Re: Tackling Balance issues, ATTACK
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2010, 10:28:35 am »
'Now this I could get behind.  This is a reasonable change.  I don't think it should be something they invoke as that implies magic.'

Outside of the +Acc suggestion I make above. I suggested something the other day I'd like to reiterate here.

Give Hunters the ability to purge caster-buffs? Like an 'energy' based skill to remove X buffs from target player. This ties in with the witchhunter theme and would make them fun/useful.